YT2095 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 or anti-anything. I`ve noticed a good many posts about gays here, some are against (and treated like that`s BAD!) and some are very much FOR gays? so what`s wrong with being anti-gay? after all it`s just a way of thinking and a beleif, like Christainity or any other system! there anti-abortion (are they bad) there`s anti-nuclear weapons (are they bad) anti-death penalty (are they bad) anti-vivisection (are they bad) ??? and yet if you`re anti-gay or anti almost anything else, you`re automaticaly pianted a BAD GUY!!! can someone try and justify this laughable "Logic" in a democratic world? all REASONABLE comments welcome, and please observe the SFN rules about posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamLord Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 To me, it's not really the "anti" part that's wrong. I mean, it's just someone's opinion, they can be anti-whatever. It's the fact that most of them, because they are ant-gay, are also oppressing homosexuals. By saying that they shouldn't be married, making fun of them, whatever. Being anti-something is OK, as long as you are not hurting anyone because of your beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted August 20, 2004 Author Share Posted August 20, 2004 I think it would be prudent at this juncture to point out that I`m discussing those that are of the NON stereotypical Homophobics or Zenophobics etc... just the ordinary Joe on the streets that doesn`t like gays, not some gay basher violent type that carry weapons ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 and yet if you`re anti-gay or anti almost anything else, you`re automaticaly pianted a BAD GUY!!! only by the person you are against though, like, say i was anti-X, and you were X, you would see my as the bad guy, if you were Y, then you either view me as someone with a personal view, or you'd agree with me. you are only "pianted" the bad guy, by those you are against! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted August 20, 2004 Author Share Posted August 20, 2004 I`ve edited the thread title to be more specific by the way. you make an interesting point in your post, so maybe it`s a "personal thing"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 i think that it is a personal thing, but we see it in a world wide scale... two men want to get married, people support, people protest, both sides hate each other, happens on a world wide scale, however, it comes down to each and every person individual views on the matter; a subject which this website likes to have a lot of! there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to views and/or opinions, such as gay's, it just depends on your view! or inevitably, on the most popular view, combined with the view of the leader of the country, e.g. prime minister, or president, as to whether it is legal in the country or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Usually it's because the anti person involved can't make the distinction between individuals' behaviour and group generalisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted August 20, 2004 Author Share Posted August 20, 2004 I`m glad you added the "Usualy" part, as that cuts both ways and often does with the same argument (dependant on the view held). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 There is a vast, gaping chasm of difference between personal opinion and discriminatory behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt_f13 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I think blatantly boasting your view may be seen as a discriminatory behavior. I just did that a few seconds ago and feel rather guilty about it, merely because I may have offended someone in the process. Perhaps it should be noted that there is a large difference between being anti person and anti idea. For example, anti-gay and anti-homosexual are clearly different notions (when gay in this instance is used as representing the idea or behavior rather than the person.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I think the real problem with being anti-somebody is that you are destabilizing the community. A community of people relies upon a certain an amount of harmony. By being anti-somebody you are contributing to intolerance, strife, and anger. These things lead to problems in the community. You may argue that this doesn't matter as long as they don't discriminate but someone who is anti-somebody can't help but to discriminate when they think they can get away with it. It's human nature to discriminate amongst those you do and do not like. A situation where intolerance taken to the extreme is the Middle East. The Jews are very intolerant of the Muslims and the Muslims are very intolerant of the Jews. This leads to violence and bloodshed. People are quick to speak out against intolerance because they know that if it gets out of hand things will become unpleasant. I think that it is inherent in man to seek to accept someone after they have become part of your community. It's a survival instinct of species that live in communities and it’s a behavior learned by seeing what happens when intolerance is taken to the extreme. Communities of people regulate intolerance because intolerance is bad for the community. Intolerance, discrimination, and greed are all branches of the same tree of discontent. These are the things that lead to slavery, war, and general unhappiness. I will defend the rights of someone who wants to baselessly say or think negatively about someone because freedom of speech and freedom of thought are an important part of a democracy or a free society. However, I believe that a world where intolerance is restrained is the kind of world I want my children to inherit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I have recently discovered that I am anti-philosophers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamLord Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 It is bad to be intolerant of other people, just because they do not think the same way. But then, it is also bad to try to make people think a different way, for we should all have our own thoughts and opinions. I think the thing is, if you feel this way keep your thoughts to yourself. For stating them, is only going to make others dislike you for being intolerant towars others. I for one, do not like the colour pink. And people wearing that colour can bother me sometimes. But I do not tell a person wearing pink: "I despise that colour. How could you wear that colour?" I respect that they have their own opinions, and that they may happen to like the colour pink, even if I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I have recently discovered that I am anti-philosophers. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 I think you hold the burden of proof if you want to condemn someone. I can justify being against someone having an abortion if I show that the harm caused by abortion is greater than any good it provides, and so forth down the list. I haven't seen many justifications at all for anti-gay opinions, let alone any decent ones. There's nothing to make me think that homosexuality is causing anyone any great harm, so discriminating against them is illogical and simply bigoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt_f13 Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 or anti-anything. so what`s wrong with being anti-gay? after all it`s just a way of thinking and a beleif' date=' like Christainity or any other system![/quote'] It's not at all like Christianity. As far as I am given to believe, the basis of Christianity is tolerance and consideration for other human beings. A belief system that is based upon being 'anti someone' or against a group simply because they are not like you is inherently flawed. It means you are judging them not for what they are, but for what you are not, i.e. the degree of difference between them and you, and that is not a sound basis for defining a group. there anti-abortion (are they bad) there`s anti-nuclear weapons (are they bad) anti-death penalty (are they bad) anti-vivisection (are they bad) You are not comparing like with like. Abortion = choice Nuclear weapons = choice Death penalty = choice Vivisection = choice Your examples all involve choice. People can choose whether or not to have abortions, whether or not to develop more powerful weapons, whether or not to have a death penalty and whether or not to perform vivisection. With the factors that form the bases of much discrimination, people do not have a choice: Gender - No choice; Sexuality - No choice; Race - No choice; Disability - No choice. To blame/penalise/discriminate/disparage or to make negative value judgements regarding a person/people based on factors for which they are not responsible and over which they have control, and ultimately for factors which are not relevant to their worth as a person, is spurious reasoning. In short, being anti gay is based upon the same reasoning as being anti anybody based on an irrelevant variable that happens to be different to the same comparable variable in you (e.g. skin colour/sex/hair colour/sexuality/height/eye colour/shoe size, etc., etc..). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 There's nothing to make me think that homosexuality is causing anyone any great harm, so discriminating against them is illogical and simply bigoted. They have taken over our TV and are suppressing hetrosexual rights of expression! Have you seen how many gay orientated TV shows there now are on UK TV? I can't switch on the box anymore without being assailed by pictures of burly men in thongs! I switch over from 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy' only to find Graham Norton prancing about on the other channel. Although I am not really being serious, I must state for the record, that I can't stand shows like 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy'. I find them incredibly demeaning; it is reinforcing stereotypes of both homo and hetro males to suggest that the 'straight guy' has no taste or dress sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 I forgot the crunch point that it is pretty pointless to be anti something nobody can do anything about anyway. When I'm on a run, I'm anti rain, but that won't prevent it from raining, nor make it stop if it does rain. So, being anti rain is completely pointless. Homosexuality is not something anybody can do anything about (and indeed, why should they?). Being anti gay won't prevent homosexuality, nor will it change the sexuality of existing homosexuals. So, being anti gay is as pointless as being anti rain. All being 'anti' does is make other people's lives a little harder and your own life a little less content. For what good reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 I must state for the record, that I can't stand shows like 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy'. I find them incredibly demeaning; it is reinforcing stereotypes of both homo and hetro males to suggest that the 'straight guy' has no taste or dress sense.I am a straight guy who cares very little for things like dress sense. Since I'm buying clothes anyway, why not take the advice of those who are considered knowledgeable? I love QE because they point out things I do I've never really thought about that I could do better. Women often won't tell you these things. They just shake their heads, pass judgement and move on. I for one appreciate the point of view QE gives me. It doesn't scare me and a lot of their advice is really insightful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coquina Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Based on some things I have read, it is my belief that homosexuality is physiological in nature. For example - here's an abstract of an article from "Pub Med" "Neuroendocrine mechanisms and the aetiology of male and female homosexuality. MacCulloch MJ, Waddington JL. Theories on the classification and aetiology of male homosexuality are reviewed, particularly recent hypotheses on the role of prenatal hormonal influences on brain sexual differentiation and subsequent sexual object choice in the male. Female as well as male brain sexual differentiation may be hormonally determined, and so primary homosexuality in both sexes may be due to abnormalities in foetal exposure to hormones, leading first to physical mis-differentiation and later to homosexual behaviour in genetically and phenotypically normal men and women. " If hermaphrodites - people born with both male and female sexual organs exist, then it stands to reason this can occur to a lesser degree on a hormonal level. Whether it is due to fetal exposure to hormones, or a chance mutation - who knows. But what sense does it make to be "anti" anything that is normal for that individual. When the same traits appear world-wide, throughout history, and across cultures, and even across species (see this National Geographic article: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html) it stands to reason that there is more going on than "choice". I have also read quite a bit about the Native American "Berdache" http://www.msu.edu/~lees/Kristina/Berdache.htm In any event - what's the point in being "anti" a natural occurrance? Isn't acceptance of differences among us much more productive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 They are very annoying though. But then, a lot of people on TV are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolecularMan14 Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 I myself do not really support gays at all, but thats not to say that I go and beat them up b/c of who they are and what they choose. I dont support them, and I believe that as long as they leave me out of it, they have just as many rights as I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coquina Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Glider - Yeah - their mannerisms can be very annoying - so are those of lots of other people. I would far rather have a conversation with a gay person than a loud-mouthed, arrogant bore. More than anything else - I think we are uncomfortable among people we don't understand. That doesn't mean we have to make an effort to understand them - we can just acknowledge the differences and move on. Trying to change an individual's makeup or personality is about as beneficial as trying to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 I was refering only to those guys on Queer Eye, not gays as a whole. It's just your post got in before mine. It's just those couple of guys who feel it necessary to rip the crap out of the subject before they do their transformation thing. I was just thinking what would happen if somebody came into my home (invited or not) and spent 20 minutes insulting me on international TV. It might make for 'good TV', but I think I would find it quite annoying. The fact they're gay makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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