White kids who act black...grrrr

[ParanoiA]

Ok, so I've been laughing for years at white kids holding their pants with one hand, sporting a cleverly original crooked ball cap and talking ebonics with rapper sign language.

 

Now my son is doing it...

 

Is this some kind of cruel joke? There really is a god isn't there...and he's paying me back huh?

 

So, I'm wondering about other's experiences with this phenomenon. I have a strong aversion to it. It looks so stupid to me. I know, I know...I was stupid too as a teenager, growing long hair (which I still have to this day), cutting up my concert shirts and putting holes in my jeans.

 

I've always said I wouldn't care what kind of freaky hair thing my kids wanted to do, or even fashion apparel - and I don't. I can deal with the ignorant "I don't wear pants that fit cuz I'm cool" thing, but talking black? What up wit 'dat?

 

I'm trying not to be a stuffy old man, I'm only 36, but I hate this...let me repeat, I HATE this.

 

And now I may have even crossed the line. I told my son, last night, not to act like that in my house. I told him he is not black and so forcing himself to talk like that is almost, downright offensive. Doing it in jest, or joking around to a certain extent I can understand, but adopting the dialect just seems rather offensive.

 

What do you all think?

[insane_alien]

Personally, i am with you on the point that i think it looks stupid. i also think black people doing it look pretty stupid as well.

 

on the other hand, i really don't care. If they want to look like idiots then they can I won't stop them but I won't join them.

 

As for adopting the dialect, imitaion is the greatest form of flattery. maybe he is doing it because he likes it. not for jest not for kidding around but because he likes it.

[the tree]

I adopt all dialects, I basically match whoever I'm talking to at the time. It's called linguistic convergence and everyone does it to a varying extent.

Contrary to that is a phenomenon called (obviously) linguistic divergence and it can be more noticeable, people often divert from the normal way of speaking in an effort to assert their identity, for instance people that are from another part of the country may make a specific effort to retain their original accent because they have found their role as "the guy from Up North". Kids do it to, well just to be contrary, it has all the same psychological reasoning behind it as baggy jeans and torn band t-shirts.

Now, as for why they'd chose to talk black of all things. Well that's worryingly simple it's the same answer as to: why, assuming each to be equally defiant, are baggy jeans more popular amongst teenagers than three piece suits?

[insane_alien]

why, assuming each to be equally defiant, are baggy jeans more popular amongst teenagers than three piece suits?

 

because you can get the former out of asda for £3 while a suit will set you back a bit.

[the tree]

That wasn't the correct answer but I'll give you partial credit as it is technically true.

 

My point was that the underdog image is, and always has been, incredibly cool.

[ParanoiA]

I adopt all dialects, I basically match whoever I'm talking to at the time. It's called linguistic convergence and everyone does it to a varying extent.

 

I would take mild offense to that. If you ran into me, here in the midwest of the USA, and started using my dialect, I might not say anything, at least at first. But, I would be thinking to myself..."where's this guy get off talking like he's from around here?" It seems patronizing to me. Like you're making fun without being funny.

 

It seems like it comes from the same place that blissful ignorance merged with stereotypes of other cultures comes from. Like, assuring a Polish person that you don't think they're stupid at all. Or, declaring your love for spaghetti to an Italian person. Yeah, maybe that's all good intentions, but it's also quite stupid, ignorant and somewhat offensive.

 

Edit: After re-reading that, it sounds like I'm calling you stupid and ignorant, I did not mean that at all.

[the tree]

Not really, you do it as well. It's just something that people do. It's an interesting quirk in the way that we speak that after just a few minutes we would start imitating each others pronunciation, probably not intentionally, and make an unspoken agreement on which set of slang/jargon to use. It's just like the way that people adopt a completely different voice when they're on the telephone, people just do it, it can be quite amusing to watch sometimes.

Anyway, I was just using it as an example of the fact that people change their speech for various reasons, all the time.

[Dak]

yeah, i do that a lot (and completely unintentionally).

 

depending on which of my old housemates i was speaking with, i used to end up with a really noticable c'n'ree-boi or german accent

 

Doing it in jest, or joking around to a certain extent I can understand, but adopting the dialect just seems rather offensive

 

i think most black people probably adopt it too.

 

anyhoo, it's pretty standard in-group/out-group stuffage: i belon' to dis in-group innit mon, cossa how i speaks, innit; it's no different from 'i belong to this in-group 'cos i have spikey hair'.

[Realitycheck]

Sigh. The whole black act, something that I was semi-guilty of when I was young. Kids, in general, don't really have a clue, unless their parents are Jewish and they know that the spoils of the firstborn are at stake if they don't act like a good little Jewboy. They think with their hormones, something which black people arguably have an abundance of, so we imitate them. It's all about being the most flamboyant set of cahones on the block, a mating ritual. This is what they learn at school, that the black man is large and in charge. Don't really know how to help you other than to say that sooner or later, a girl might show him the light, IF he is willing to listen. Of course, it's really just a fad, in a sense, nobody does that forever and expects to get anywhere in society, unless they turn out to be the REAL Slim Shady.

[ParanoiA]

Not really, you do it as well. It's just something that people do. It's an interesting quirk in the way that we speak that after just a few minutes we would start imitating each others pronunciation, probably not intentionally, and make an unspoken agreement on which set of slang/jargon to use.

 

I can see that, I find myself doing it too. But to the point that you're basically adopting a whole new dialect seems to go way beyond a quirky human behavior thing.

 

Not to mention, how do you explain using it around people who don't have that dialect? No one in our house talks like that...except my son. So where's the imitation factor on that?

 

I think you're right though, at least at perhaps how it all starts out. But at this point, I think we're beyond the quirky imitation phase.

[ParanoiA]

Of course, it's really just a fad, in a sense, nobody does that forever and expects to get anywhere in society, unless they turn out to be the REAL Slim Shady.

 

That's what I'm afraid of...

 

I guess I should relax about it, but it's incredibly difficult for me. Makes me sick to see people, even silly teenagers, glorify stupidity. The whole being-smart-is-not-cool thing... Maybe that's an invalid association, but much of the jargon just seems like dumbed down english.

[YT2095]

actually I find it interesting that the Black/White is main focus here!

 

surely the focus should be more on Acting Falsely in an overly Pretentious manner.

and nothing to do with Specific(s) of Color.

 

 

Just an Observation

[swansont]

actually I find it interesting that the Black/White is main focus here!

 

surely the focus should be more on Acting Falsely in an overly Pretentious manner. and nothing to do with Specific(s) of Color.

 

Yeah, I was wondering how one would "talk black" or "act black." How is it not considered an incredibly racist statement?

[the tree]

Because we all know what he really means?

[YT2095]

we "ALL" do, do "WE"!?

 

Hmmm...

[the tree]

I'm sure that all the people who have posted so far in this thread are aware of what ParanoiA is talking about. That's all I meant by 'we'.

[YT2095]

yes he made it Quite clear, Whites acting like Blacks.

 

there was no confusion

[the tree]

Well he meant white people acting like a certain black stereotype, but whatever.

[Dak]

still, these two seem to be in conflict:

 

Ok, so I've been laughing for years at white kids [...] talking ebonics with rapper sign language.

 

I told him he is not black and so forcing himself to talk like that is almost, downright offensive.

 

it's a black thing that lots of white people do... then it's a predominantly black thing, not an exclusively black thing. your kid is talking in a way that lots of other kids, mainly but not exclusively black, do. so he's not really 'being black', he's 'being a rapper', which just happens to be more common amongst blacks.

 

it's not the kid's fault that his behaviour is steryotypically associated with blacks, despite the number of white kids who act like that.

[Royston]

I think there's a bit of a confusion here between a fad and actually trying to gel with a social group by using subtle techniques.

 

As you grow up, different youth cultures seem exciting because there's new aspects to explore, the music, the fashion, the language. By trying to adopt the behaviours of other cultures it creates a new identity for the individual. This is different to the Tree's example, where linguistic convergence can be adopted by a whole group, and is really just to bond with other people. More often than not, with the former, the individual knows little about that culture which makes it all that more alluring...and why they look so silly trying to adopt that culture.

 

Paranoia's son may walk through the door dressed as a goth next week. I've certainly seen similar behaviour with my nephew and nieces...as well as my friends as we grew up.

[the tree]

That wasn't the purpose of my example of linguistic convergence, I was in fact saying that the whole "talking black" thing was an example of 'divergence, which is almost the opposite.

Apart from the misinterpretation which may well have been my fault, Snail is right on the mark here.

[Royston]

That wasn't the purpose of my example of linguistic convergence, I was in fact saying that the whole "talking black" thing was an example of 'divergence, which is almost the opposite.

 

Right, sorry about that.

 

Apart from the misinterpretation which may well have been my fault

 

Re-reading your post it wasn't abundantly clear, so I guess we're both partially at fault

 

I think we should use the term 'talking gangster'

[ParanoiA]

Yeah, I was wondering how one would "talk black" or "act black." How is it not considered an incredibly racist statement?

 

Because it wouldn't be racist, but rather ignorant, at best. Also, I meant black. It came from the black culture. Black dialect is also unique to black folks, but not quite the same thing. I'm referring to both things here, the lingo and the dialect rolled into "black talk".

 

Over the years this has morphed I guess, into the white culture. I guess I still see it as most of us did 20 years ago, approximately, when rap hit the mainstream and MTV began telling me how cool it was - it was a black thing.

 

I certainly don't mean to say that all black people talk and act like that. But then, that's a given when using generalizations. I still would say terms like "Yo G-money" are a black thing, whereas "Dude, man..." would be a white thing.

 

it's a black thing that lots of white people do... then it's a predominantly black thing, not an exclusively black thing. your kid is talking in a way that lots of other kids, mainly but not exclusively black, do. so he's not really 'being black', he's 'being a rapper', which just happens to be more common amongst blacks.

 

Or I could spare everyone the semantics and save time and energy and attribute the characteristics to their originator and obvious identity.

 

However, you're certainly not irresponsible for pointing it out, because I could very well be quietly racist. I don't mean to be, but I would have to admit a certain degree of resistance to pretty much anything the black culture has fed the pop culture mainstream. Of course, that responsibility falls on the followers rather than the leaders.

 

As you grow up, different youth cultures seem exciting because there's new aspects to explore, the music, the fashion, the language. By trying to adopt the behaviours of other cultures it creates a new identity for the individual. This is different to the Tree's example, where linguistic convergence can be adopted by a whole group, and is really just to bond with other people. More often than not, with the former, the individual knows little about that culture which makes it all that more alluring...and why they look so silly trying to adopt that culture.

 

This seems the most reasonable to me. This makes sense to me too. Good post Snail.

 

Paranoia's son may walk through the door dressed as a goth next week.

 

You know, I always figured he'd go that way. He's deep and complicated and has usually had a pessimistic outlook on things. He certainly didn't get that from me...

[Dak]

Or I could spare everyone the semantics and save time and energy and attribute the characteristics to their originator and obvious identity.

 

it wasn't the fact you reffered to it as black that i thought was wrong, but rather the fact that the only actual justification you gave -- I told him he is not black and so forcing himself to talk like that is almost, downright offensive -- assumes that 'white people don't talk like that', which you know is wrong from your 'laughing at for years' comment.

 

if white people talk like that, then he's not talking like black people in the way that could be offensive.

 

anyhoo, i'm pretty sure most black people that talk like that forse themselves to. it's not a natural accent, i don't think.

 

However, you're certainly not irresponsible for pointing it out, because I could very well be quietly racist. I don't mean to be, but I would have to admit a certain degree of resistance to pretty much anything the black culture has fed the pop culture mainstream.

 

nah, i don't think you're racist. although, you do seem to be quite against baggy trousers for no reason other than they're associated with black culture.

 

I like baggy trousers.

 

anyway, don't you think it's excessively coincidental that the one thing that would irk you the most is the thing your kid is doing? i certainly remember an 'im doing that cos my parents wouldn't like me to' faze. is he, say, 15?

 

I'd guess that when he says 'yo, waddup daddy-dawg' , he's actually saying '**** you, i'm doing what I want now, not what you want, cos i'm a man now and i can so !!!'

[ParanoiA]

it wasn't the fact you reffered to it as black that i thought was wrong, but rather the fact that the only actual justification you gave -- I told him he is not black and so forcing himself to talk like that is almost, downright offensive -- assumes that 'white people don't talk like that', which you know is wrong from your 'laughing at for years' comment.

 

Oh, ok. I get it now. I'm thick sometimes.

 

although, you do seem to be quite against baggy trousers for no reason other than they're associated with black culture.

 

No, it's not the baggy trousers, it's wearing them half way down your legs, sporting your underwear. But it's really the talk that gets me the most.

 

anyway, don't you think it's excessively coincidental that the one thing that would irk you the most is the thing your kid is doing? i certainly remember an 'im doing that cos my parents wouldn't like me to' faze. is he, say, 15?

 

Hehe..14 going on 21. He wants to drink, smoke, have sex, shoot guns, talk smack...

 

Oh I swear I tried to keep my disgust of this secret - buried deep down, never to rear it's head until he was like 25 or so - because I KNEW this could happen. Yes, he apparently has figured me out quite well...