9 minutes ago, CharonY said:

By around the 10th century the majority of Persians would be Muslim.

Ancient traditions die hard. Peoples' identities die hard. So let me make your phrase a tad more nuanced:

By around the 10th century the majority of Persians would be subject to the Muslim rule. Not "be Muslims". That I would agree with.

If the local authority forces you to proclaim yourself a toad, under penalty of death, you will enthusiastically trill in response. But that doesn't mean you're a toad.

There is a reason why modern Persians haven't forgotten they were once Zoroastrian, even after Alexander the Great burned their sacred book. They still hold a fire, they swear it was never put out, in honour of Ahura Mazda. There is a reason why modern-day Persians who don't necessarily believe in Ahura Mazda, deem it worth laying down their lives on behalf of their identity, quite independent from Islam. Which to me implies not all of these 10th-century Persians were actually that Muslim. Similar things happen in other parts of the world. It doesn't mean "I believe in my gods of old". It means: "You can stick your god wherever it fits in your anatomy".

Edited Tuesday at 01:23 AM2 days by joigus
minor correction

2 hours ago, joigus said:

By around the 10th century the majority of Persians would be subject to the Muslim rule. Not "be Muslims". That I would agree with.

I think it would be tall order for something to have such a dominant cultural role for over 1000 years and not have it absorbed into the fabric of society. I.e. I find the hypothesis that somehow the Iranians were only ruled by Muslims but didn't become Muslims not terribly convincing, unless you have some evidence to support that. I am also not quite clear regarding your Alexander the Great story. Zoroastrianism was well and alive during hist time (he died 323 BC) and continued to do so, as I mentioned well beyond the fall of the Persian Sasnian Empire (around 650 AD). The Islamization dominantly happened in the 300-400 years thereafter.

13 hours ago, CharonY said:

He also does talk about the different between the leadership and the Iranians. I also found a video from the discussion, if you are interested (I just lack the patience when reading is so much faster).

Speak for yourself, and thanks for the video, but I too lost patience after about 20 mins and skipped to the end/conclusion; all 'they' want is a seat at the table, why are 'we' so afraid of their opinion?

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Speak for yourself, and thanks for the video, but I too lost patience after about 20 mins

Folks doing silent reading the article can be read in about 20-45 mins, i.e. less than half the time needed for listening. But of course it depends on practice and other factors (such as legasthenia). But an important advantage is that you can much easier skim through parts of it and focus on the parts one might be interested in. In a video that is quite hard.

17 hours ago, joigus said:

There is a reason why modern Persians haven't forgotten they were once Zoroastrian, even after Alexander the Great burned their sacred book. They still hold a fire, they swear it was never put out, in honour of Ahura Mazda.

My apologies, I think I misread your argument. I think you meant that as example that despite being conquered by Macedonian empire, the Persians did not give up on Zoroastrianisms despite persecutions. And hence the end of the Sasanian empire was no different.

However, there a few issues. The first is historical accuracy. While there are later text claiming the deed you mentioned, at least those texts I read a long time ago stressed that there were no contemporary sources to substantiate that. And at least one text have referred to how Persians (like everyone else) often embellished stories to make a point. Also, in the successor state (Seleucid Empire) there was I believe no evidence of persecution or other oppression of Zorostrianism. In contrast to Abrahamic traditions, conversion was not much of a thing, rather Hellinization was the process through which Greek culture spread. And then of course by 247 BC the Parthian Empire established itself and they and especially their successor (the Sasanian Empire) made Zoroastrianism a central religion. So effectively one cold see the Greek period (486 BC-247 BC) as an intermission in Persian Empires. However, the fall of the Sasanian Empire was the end of the chapter.

As a side note, the islamization of the fallen empire had also the interesting effect of a "reverse Hellenization". I.e. Persian culture started to spread through the Muslim world during that time period.

I always thought the Seljuk Turk empire, of which Persia was part of, was Sunni Muslim.
The last remaining part of that empire was Rum ( derived from Rome ), present day Turkiye, and the origin of the Ottoman empire.

How then did Persia ( present day Iran ) become Shiite Muslim ?

40 minutes ago, MigL said:

I always thought the Seljuk Turk empire, of which Persia was part of, was Sunni Muslim.
The last remaining part of that empire was Rum ( derived from Rome ), present day Turkiye, and the origin of the Ottoman empire.

How then did Persia ( present day Iran ) become Shiite Muslim ?

I think it started with the Safavid conquests during the 16th century during which Sunnis were also forcefully converted to Shia.

On 3/17/2026 at 3:59 PM, CharonY said:

Folks doing silent reading the article can be read in about 20-45 mins, i.e. less than half the time needed for listening. But of course it depends on practice and other factors (such as legasthenia). But an important advantage is that you can much easier skim through parts of it and focus on the parts one might be interested in. In a video that is quite hard.

It takes me a lot longer, to not only read but also a lot more concentration to comprehend the meaning, verbally I can, usually, skip to the end in about the same time.

On 3/17/2026 at 10:55 PM, CharonY said:

I think it started with the Safavid conquests during the 16th century during which Sunnis were also forcefully converted to Shia.

It's funny how often that doesn't work...

One for Alanis...