The Marxist idea of history being teleological, i.e. progressing towards a specific, predetermined goal seems to me to be a secularized version of Christian eschatology with the World Revolution being the equivalent of the Day of Judgement and Communism (stateless, classless society) being the equivalent of Paradise/Kingdom of Heaven.

The similarities are especailly uncanny with Marxists Leninists - they have their own prophets (Marx and Engels), the Apostle (Lenin), the infallible Pope (Stalin/Mao), the Judas iskariote (Trotsky, Deng Xiaoping), priesthood (the vanguard party) etc. Maoists even had a thing called "struggle sessions" which were public lynchings of individuals accused of doctrinal errors that mirrored religious persecution. Online debates among Marxists Leninists often boil down to who can correctly interpret the "holy texts", most arguments are unfalsifable and structurally resemble theological disputes.

AFAIK Marx took his idea of dialectics from Hegel who was a devout Christian and it's possible that Christianity influenced him even without him being aware of it.

Edited October 24Oct 24 by Otto Kretschmer

13 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

The Marxist idea of history being teleological, i.e. progressing towards a specific, predetermined goal seems to me to be a secularized version of Christian eschatology with the World Revolution being the equivalent of the Day of Judgement and Communism (stateless, classless society) being the equivalent of Paradise/Kingdom of Heaven.

The similarities are especailly uncanny with Marxists Leninists - they have their own prophets (Marx and Engels), the Apostle (Lenin), the infallible Pope (Stalin/Mao), the Judas iskariote (Trotsky, Deng Xiaoping), priesthood (the vanguard party) etc. Maoists even had a thing called "struggle sessions" which were public lynchings of individuals accused of doctrinal errors that mirrored religious persecution. Online debates among Marxists Leninists often boil down to who can correctly interpret the "holy texts", most arguments are unfalsifable and structurally resemble theological disputes.

AFAIK Marx took his idea of dialectics from Hegel who was a devout Christian and it's possible that Christianity influenced him even without him being aware of it.

While I think the parallels can be overdone there are no doubt similarities in the way communism has been expressed, probably because it is an ideology. I used to be amused by the way communists and other far left socialists were always having internal rows and splitting to form new tiny groups, each holding to what they saw as the "true" faith. True Scotsmen everywhere! Very reminiscent of extreme Protestantism. When ideologies are not tempered by pragmatism these manifestation are what you tend to get.

1 minute ago, exchemist said:

While I think the parallels can be overdone there are no doubt similarities in the way communism has been expressed, probably because it is an ideology. I used to be amused by the way communists and other far left socialists were always having internal rows and splitting to form new tiny groups, each holding to what they saw as the "true" faith. True Scotsmen everywhere! Very reminiscent of extreme Protestantism. When ideologies are not tempered by pragmatism these manifestation are what you tend to get.

This is not 100% limited to Marxism IMHO - Francis Fukuyama's "End of History" was an expression of similar mentality (and one of the greatest pieces of ideological hubris in history on top of that)

BTW: Trotskyists are the most famous for splitting, even among other communists. There is something like 15 Trotskyist internationals all descended from the 4th International of the 1930s. You can even find pictures showing their evolutionary tree online.

Edited October 24Oct 24 by Otto Kretschmer

26 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

The Marxist idea of history being teleological, i.e. progressing towards a specific, predetermined goal seems to me to be a secularized version of Christian eschatology with the World Revolution being the equivalent of the Day of Judgement and Communism (stateless, classless society) being the equivalent of Paradise/Kingdom of Heaven.

The similarities are especailly uncanny with Marxists Leninists - they have their own prophets (Marx and Engels), the Apostle (Lenin), the infallible Pope (Stalin/Mao), the Judas iskariote (Trotsky, Deng Xiaoping), priesthood (the vanguard party) etc. Maoists even had a thing called "struggle sessions" which were public lynchings of individuals accused of doctrinal errors that mirrored religious persecution. Online debates among Marxists Leninists often boil down to who can correctly interpret the "holy texts", most arguments are unfalsifable and structurally resemble theological disputes.

AFAIK Marx took his idea of dialectics from Hegel who was a devout Christian and it's possible that Christianity influenced him even without him being aware of it.

First tell me why you chose a username that celebrates a man who sent many thousands of allied naval crew and civilian seamen to their graves in WWII.

Well 'Silent Otto'?

5 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

First tell me why you chose a username that celebrates a man who sent many thousands of allied naval crew and civilian seamen to their graves in WWII.

Well 'Silent Otto'?

Do I really need to explain this? In 2021 I was registering on an alt history forum (as a history fan) and couldn't figure out what surname to choose, I choose this one since I had read about him on a list of top scoring submarine aces of all time. I actually wanted to change it a few days ago and wrote to @swansont about that but he was unable to change it (only an admin can change username). Otto Kretschmer was not a war criminal and he actually became a vice admiral in the West German navy after the war.

Edited October 24Oct 24 by Otto Kretschmer

5 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

Do I really need to explain this? In 2021 I was registering on an alt history forum (as a history fan) and couldn't figure out what surname to choose, I choose this one since I had read about him on a list of top scoring submarine aces of all time. I actually wanted to change it a few days ago and wrote to @swansont about that but he was unable to change it (only an admin can change username). Otto Kretschmer was not a war criminal and he actually became a vice admiral in the West German navy after the war.

Well that explains it then.

1 hour ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

Do I really need to explain this? In 2021 I was registering on an alt history forum (as a history fan) and couldn't figure out what surname to choose, I choose this one since I had read about him on a list of top scoring submarine aces of all time. I actually wanted to change it a few days ago and wrote to @swansont about that but he was unable to change it (only an admin can change username). Otto Kretschmer was not a war criminal and he actually became a vice admiral in the West German navy after the war.

I had assumed it was a mash-up of two characters from Smiley's People: Otto Leipzig and Claus Kretzschmar. But now it occurs to me that it might be Le Carré who disassembled the name of the submariner for his two characters. How very interesting.

15 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

This is not 100% limited to Marxism IMHO

I would think this is obvious, as any belief system can be likened to a religion.

15 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

Otto Kretschmer was not a war criminal and he actually became a vice admiral in the West German navy after the war.

I appreciate your desire to change your name, given Kretschmer was Hitler's top U boat commander. Though not technically a war criminal, he did kill thousands of civilian sailors, as well as soldiers. Given the current troubles the world is having with revivals of Nazi ideology, that name might not be the best look for you. For an analogy, if I were to join a forum with many Japanese members, I would be reluctant to call myself Paul Tibbets, who was captain of the Enola Gay.

6 hours ago, TheVat said:

I appreciate your desire to change your name, given Kretschmer was Hitler's top U boat commander. Though not technically a war criminal, he did kill thousands of civilian sailors, as well as soldiers. Given the current troubles the world is having with revivals of Nazi ideology, that name might not be the best look for you. For an analogy, if I were to join a forum with many Japanese members, I would be reluctant to call myself Paul Tibbets, who was captain of the Enola Gay.

I mostly wanted my new username to align with one from another forum where I am currently active (it is: "Emperor Taizong of Tang") but it seems that the admin of SFN is very rarely online and moderators cannot change someone's surname.

On 10/25/2025 at 3:32 AM, MigL said:

I would think this is obvious, as any belief system can be likened to a religion.

But with Marxism the number of similarities with Christianiy is just astonishing - in Marxism Leninism and Marxism Leninism Maoism there was a thing called "criticism and self criticism sessions" during which people would confess their own doctrinal errors in public, so basically a religious confession.

4 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

But with Marxism the number of similarities with Christianiy is just astonishing - in Marxism Leninism and Marxism Leninism Maoism there was a thing called "criticism and self criticism sessions" during which people would confess their own doctrinal errors in public, so basically a religious confession.

Except a religious confession is a private affair, in order to forgive oneself for being a flawed human; besides I see nothing wrong with editing ones doctrine when confronted with an error.

11 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Except a religious confession is a private affair, in order to forgive oneself for being a flawed human; besides I see nothing wrong with editing ones doctrine when confronted with an error.

IMHO the most successful politics is pragmatic and done with ideology as a broad guiding principle and not absolute truth.

1 minute ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

IMHO the most successful politics is pragmatic and done with ideology as a broad guiding principle and not absolute truth.

Indeed, but I have no doubt that most religion's started with ideology, absolute truth is a post hoc ergo propter hoc.

At some point Marx will be proved right, most of the argument's up till now is, it hasn't happened yet.

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

At some point Marx will be proved right,

I don't doubt that, I was fascinated by Marxism for about six months but I drifted away and stuck on being a generic, non sectarian leftist.

23 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

I don't doubt that, I was fascinated by Marxism for about six months but I drifted away and stuck on being a generic, non sectarian leftist.

Why so extreme? 😉

In the USofA, we don't know what Marxism is but we hate it, doncha know. 🤪

npts2020; +1 Even though your statement is a little too true, thanks for the laugh.

On 10/28/2025 at 3:24 AM, Otto Kretschmer said:

But with Marxism the number of similarities with Christianiy is just astonishing - in Marxism Leninism and Marxism Leninism Maoism there was a thing called "criticism and self criticism sessions" during which people would confess their own doctrinal errors in public, so basically a religious confession.

There is no such thing as a secular religion. Marxism is an ideology.

Are you sure that Christianity was not used as a template? Kind of like what Trump is trying to do?

Gee

4 hours ago, Gees said:

There is no such thing as a secular religion. Marxism is an ideology.

... and I thought it was just a recasting of the algebra of capitalist microeconomics.

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

... and I thought it was just a recasting of the algebra of capitalist microeconomics.

There are really two separate parts of Marxism:

1. The economic part which is the analysis of capitalism in Das Kapital, based on a shitton of empirial data

2. The philosophical part. Marx took Hegel's dialectics (which Hegel had invented mostly on the basis of Plato and Kant) and replaced God and the Spirit with materialism and class struggle.

Edited October 30Oct 30 by Otto Kretschmer

22 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

There are really two separate parts of Marxism:

1. The economic part which is the analysis of capitalism in Das Kapital, based on a shitton of empirial data

2. The philosophical part. Marx took Hegel's dialectics (which Hegel had invented mostly on the basis of Plato and Kant) and replaced God and the Spirit with materialism and class struggle.

Are you telling me or asking me?

Wtf is a shitton?

2 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

Are you telling me or asking me?

Wtf is a shitton?

Telling.

2 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

Telling.

Quite unnecessary, I assure you.

Just now, sethoflagos said:

Quite unnecessary, I assure you.

My apologies then.

6 hours ago, Gees said:

There is no such thing as a secular religion. Marxism is an ideology.

Marxism is a philosophy based on the economic 'false' god, money, and the potential for it to be our downfall.

A secular religion depends on your definition of religion, a secular society is certainly capable of a dogmatic faith in it's doctrine.

6 hours ago, Gees said:

Are you sure that Christianity was not used as a template?

Pretty sure.

Islam seems a closer fit, given shariah law in the banking sector.