I'm asking for two reasons:

1. Neuromodulation is a fast developing field. 10 years from now it should be completely mainstream and used for a myriad of psychiatric issues

2. This matter is of personal relevance to me (due to my low affective empathy)

I am not well versed in this topic but I do know that affective empathy involves the Anterior Cingulate Cortex, the Anterior Insula and some part of the Prefrontal Cortex but I can't say which one. Advanced neuromodulation will be (in the next 10-15 years) a perfect toll for me if it works since it has the potential of causing significant personality changes without me having to do any kind of work.

With regards.

Edited August 13Aug 13 by Phi for All
changed neuroimaging to neuromodulation

8 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

10 years from now it should be completely mainstream and used for a myriad of psychiatric issues

Some citations on this would be helpful. Given that many human behaviors are complex and come from holistic brain function, I have some reservations about neuromodulation increasing empathy. Empathy, even for neurotypicals, is some work, incorporating social experiences and exercise of the imagination.

45 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Some citations on this would be helpful. Given that many human behaviors are complex and come from holistic brain function, I have some reservations about neuromodulation increasing empathy. Empathy, even for neurotypicals, is some work, incorporating social experiences and exercise of the imagination.

I never choose my personality, hence I am under no obligation to work on improving it. The method of change has to:

1. Work.

2. Not require any effort on my part (people who need a heart surgery don't have to do surgery on themselves and people with infections don't have to consciously fight the infection so people with mental health issues shouldn't be required to put any effort either)

3. Be effective regardless of my will (it should work even if I absolutely didn't want it to work)

1 hour ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

Not require any effort on my part (people who need a heart surgery don't have to do surgery on themselves and people with infections don't have to consciously fight the infection so people with mental health issues shouldn't be required to put any effort either)

Not a strong analogy. Mental health issues, especially where personal growth is involved, are generally calling for considerable effort from the person as well as the therapist. While I can't contribute to my heart surgery, working with a therapist towards mental health is a cooperative venture where the therapist or counselor guides the client but cannot do all their work for them. Developing empathy is never going to be effortless, and will require various kinds of effort to reach out to others and engage with them. I am sorry to inform you of this. There is truly no magical pill or device when it comes to interpersonal relations.

2 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

Not require any effort on my part (people who need a heart surgery don't have to do surgery on themselves and people with infections don't have to consciously fight the infection so people with mental health issues shouldn't be required to put any effort either)

I think your mistake is in assuming your examples are valid. I've had heart surgery within the last month, and while the experts did all their amazing work in a few hours, I've spent weeks expending quite a bit of effort so I don't undo their work. The examples you've given are for medical intervention, where immediate action by professionals is necessary. I'm sure there are equivalent cases in mental health as well where the doctor does almost everything and the patient has very little to do, comparatively. The patient still has to put in the effort to maintain that work, like restricting their movements, not lifting more than 10 pounds, not raising your left arm higher than 90 degrees, keeping bandages clean, and taking the right medications. And the medications often require extra effort, especially blood thinners.

Maintaining your mental health is more like maintaining a healthy weight. The doctor can help, but after making sure you don't have an infection or need heart surgery, they may tell you it would help to lose twenty pounds. They aren't going to the gym to exercise for you, so you absolutely have to put in some effort to achieve that goal. It's the same with mental health. The doctor can prescribe appropriate meds, but they also give you many techniques that will help you maintain a healthy outlook. They can't make you take the meds, and they can't make you do the affirmations or practice your social skills or anything else that improves your mental resilience. That part of the work is on you.

@TheVat @Phi for All

I would try the currently available methods (psychotherapy, mindfulness etc.) but I am not sure of the results, the structural and functional abnormalities in my brain might be too severe for the currently available methods to be effective, I might as well put a lot of work for essentially nothing. If effective (proven) neuromodulation techniques were available, I would need just enough willpower to sit down and have a beam blasted at my head.

Edited August 14Aug 14 by Otto Kretschmer

11 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I think your mistake is in assuming your examples are valid. I've had heart surgery within the last month, and while the experts did all their amazing work in a few hours, I've spent weeks expending quite a bit of effort so I don't undo their work. The examples you've given are for medical intervention, where immediate action by professionals is necessary. I'm sure there are equivalent cases in mental health as well where the doctor does almost everything and the patient has very little to do, comparatively. The patient still has to put in the effort to maintain that work, like restricting their movements, not lifting more than 10 pounds, not raising your left arm higher than 90 degrees, keeping bandages clean, and taking the right medications. And the medications often require extra effort, especially blood thinners.

Maintaining your mental health is more like maintaining a healthy weight. The doctor can help, but after making sure you don't have an infection or need heart surgery, they may tell you it would help to lose twenty pounds. They aren't going to the gym to exercise for you, so you absolutely have to put in some effort to achieve that goal. It's the same with mental health. The doctor can prescribe appropriate meds, but they also give you many techniques that will help you maintain a healthy outlook. They can't make you take the meds, and they can't make you do the affirmations or practice your social skills or anything else that improves your mental resilience. That part of the work is on you.

Marvellous insight +1.

I wish you would spread that insight around the teaching profession and the youngsters of today as it doesn't only apply to the old and decrepit.

There really are few if any short cuts.

5 hours ago, studiot said:

Marvellous insight +1.

[In regard to Phi's comments]

Agree. Expanded eloquently on what I covered in only a cursory way. A pathology of the digital age is imagining there's a shortcut or quick download for every challenge.

7 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

would try the currently available methods (psychotherapy, mindfulness etc.) but I am not sure of the results, the structural and functional abnormalities in my brain might be too severe for the currently available methods to be effective, I might as well put a lot of work for essentially nothing

The mind has much greater plasticity than we used to believe. This is one of the big steps neuroscience has made in the past few decades. You will find your hard work is rewarded, often in ways you didn't expect. Effort and will are like muscles that grow stronger as they are more used. Even if you may fall short of this goal or that goal, you will still have grown in strength and character. Nobody on their deathbed looks back and says, "Crap, I wish I hadn't made such an effort or taken all those risks!"

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

Agree. Expanded eloquently on what I covered in only a cursory way. A pathology of the digital age is imagining there's a shortcut or quick download for every challenge.

While it has gotten worse, in the area of medicine that mindset has existed for quite a while (at least in the Western world). Physicians are expected to "fix" health issues, whereas their role is really support you body to find a workable equilibrium.

Right - But @Phi for All's analogy makes sense from the point of view of current psychiatry. By 2040-45 current methods will likely be as obsolete as prescribing "fresh air" for tuberculosis is today. It's this future psychiatry that I'd like to use.

Edited August 15Aug 15 by Otto Kretschmer

To elaborate - I'd like to live in a world in which people would read about SSRIs and say: "Did people really try to cure themselves with this!? Did they really think that increasing serotonin level all across the brain in order to cure some vague, unspecific "depression" is going to work? It's so bizarre, it's like trying to charge an EV by throwing lightning strikes at it, just ridiculous!"

I'd love to use technology to transform myself into a functionally different person - no more similar to my old self than a genetically unrelated individual. And I'd like to look at my old self with zero emotional baggage, no more sad or ashamed than a typical person is about the fact they once didn't have a driver's licence. Nobody would be able to humiliate me by pointing out to me "but you were once..." - because I would be the first person to agree. This is a degree of change no drug or therapist of 2025 AD can offer to me and I cannot ofer it to myself either.

Edited August 16Aug 16 by Otto Kretschmer

20 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

. By 2040-45 current methods will likely be as obsolete as prescribing "fresh air" for tuberculosis is today. It's this future psychiatry that I'd like to use

Your analogy actually underscores that new layers of knowledge do not make obsolete the older layers. Before antibiotics, fresh air was actually helpful to tuberculosis patients. Not a cure, but it could help patients recover by promoting better lung function and putting them in a location where there was less spread of disease.

5 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

I'd love to use technology to transform myself into a functionally different person - no more similar to my old self than a genetically unrelated individual. And I'd like to look at my old self with zero emotional baggage, no more sad or ashamed than a typical person is about the fact they once didn't have a driver's licence

The realistic goal is to make friends with those darker parts of who you are and grow in this way, not to reject your self or erase personality. (This would result in something akin to the vacant and lobotomized Jack Nicholson at the end of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest") And we humans need regrets - they help us become better and more grounded, as we understand everyone is flawed and may need forgiveness. Forgive yourself for being clueless but don't discard yourself. Someday you may find you can laugh tolerantly at your younger self.

On 8/16/2025 at 4:23 PM, TheVat said:

everyone is flawed

This statement is true but ultimately quite meaningless - medicine is flawed too, yet if you had pneumonia, you would very much prefer it to be treated by modern antibiotics than by bloodletting. Yes, people are flawed but some are vastly more flawed than others.

The core fact stands - I am not willing to put any work into my personality improvement. Not even a nanosecond. I don't want to put any amount of effortful work. And I don't want to want. What I want is completely effortless self-reincarnation with memories of my old self being kept as abstract data with no emotional weight.

Now, I haven't really done any harm to other people, I am generally polite and pleasant to interact with - but my inner emotional life is a catastrophe. And since I am an introvert (and a very open minded one), my inner life is profoundly important to me.

Edited August 17Aug 17 by Otto Kretschmer

3 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

This statement is true but ultimately quite meaningless - medicine is flawed too, yet if you had pneumonia, you would very much prefer it to be treated by modern antibiotics than by bloodletting. Yes, people are flawed but some are vastly more flawed than others.

You stripped all context away from three words I wrote. This makes discussion of my real point quite difficult. And then you write...

3 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

The core fact stands - I am not willing to put any work into my personality improvement. Not even a nanosecond. I don't want to put any amount of effortful work. And I don't want to want. What I want is completely effortless self-reincarnation with memories of my old self being kept as abstract data with no emotional weight.

Which seems to me an unreasonable request, and which blocks you from any growth as a person. You've said it at least twice now, so I'm just going to wish you well and move on from a discussion that feels shut down. I would strongly urge you to seek professional counseling before you decide on any actions that would "self-reincarnate."

@TheVat

Farewell then. @Phi for All or @swansont this thread should be closed.

Edited August 17Aug 17 by Otto Kretschmer