Was Nietzsche talking about the 2nd coming of Jesus?

[dimreepr]

What did he mean by the Übermensch?

Edited September 3, 2023 by dimreepr

[ollybach]

Jesus would be considered just a messenger, without any power except that given by god. Pure among sinners. But not an over arching power. If anything Übermensch would be referring to something with a greater power.

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, ollybach said:

Jesus would be considered just a messenger, without any power except that given by god. Pure among sinners. But not an over arching power. If anything Übermensch would be referring to something with a greater power.

What do you mean by something with a greater power?

My power is being a contrary pain in the arse... 😉

If I was invisible, I'd be with Frankie Boyle; and kick a mime artist to death...

[CharonY]

Nietzsche strongly rejected the idea or belief of Christian god as a source for morals (he was one of several philosophers using the pointed phrase "god is dead").

Nietzsche's Uebermensch is grounded in the concept of an idealized or humanity, but in contrast to Christianity, which is considered part of an other-wordly concept, this ideal is linked to the physical world (or "earth"). Nietzsche did keep it rather vague and for the most part it is not so much what the Uebermensch is, but quite a bit what it isn't. It is someone, who is not bogged down by what Nietzsche considered, outdated religions and associated moralities. It is about fulfilling potential and being what they are and forging their own ways, which suggests some form of individualism, without spelling out what the potential is, and what paths there should be. From what I remember, it is basically freeing oneself from the bindings of old historic/religious rule, without succumbing to nihilsm. I.e. replace religion (or similar crutches) with a sense of self-affirmation.

As such, I would have a hard time associate any of that with Jesus, as he would likely have little patience for Jesus (as he did with religious folks.) 

[Eise]

Wow, you know your Nietzsche! +1.

What in my opinion fails in your answer (especially for a 'Biology Expert'), is that Nietzsche was influenced by Darwinism. He saw mankind as a phase between beasts and the Übermensch:

Quote

 

I teach you the Übermensch [the Overman, the Superman]. Man is something that is to be surpassed. What have ye done to surpass man?

All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: [but] ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man?

What is the ape to man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just the same shall man be to the Übermensch: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame.

Ye have made your way from the worm to man, and much within you is still worm. Once were ye apes, and even yet man is more of an ape than any of the apes. […]

Man is a rope stretched between the animal and the Übermensch—a rope over an abyss. […] What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal…

 

But it seems he did not see it as something that just will happen according to natural selection, but as something man should strive for.

So to answer dimreepr's question: surely not literally, as CharonY noticed: Nietzsche was 'Antichrist'. But one can discuss how far Nietzsche was influenced by the very common idea of the prospect of salvation. Nearly every religion has a concept of salvation, and one could defend that Nietzsche presents an atheistic, naturalistic account of such salvation.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Eise

[dimreepr]

15 hours ago, CharonY said:

Nietzsche strongly rejected the idea or belief of Christian god as a source for morals (he was one of several philosophers using the pointed phrase "god is dead").

Indeed, but was he rejecting the idea of a jesus?

The parable of a madman, in my opinion meant that without god humanity was without a rudder, or a source of enlightening and that the Übermensch, would fill the gap; "cometh the hour cometh the man".

@Eise +1

 

[Steve81]

On 9/3/2023 at 8:18 AM, dimreepr said:

What do you mean by something with a greater power?

IMHO, the greatest power humans possess: the mind. See the movie Idiocracy for how that could play out. Spoiler alert, he was merely intelligent enough to realize you probably shouldn't water plants with Gatorade. 

[CharonY]

9 hours ago, Eise said:

Wow, you know your Nietzsche! +1.

What in my opinion fails in your answer (especially for a 'Biology Expert'), is that Nietzsche was influenced by Darwinism. He saw mankind as a phase between beasts and the Übermensch:

But it seems he did not see it as something that just will happen according to natural selection, but as something man should strive for.

So to answer dimreepr's question: surely not literally, as CharonY noticed: Nietzsche was 'Antichrist'. But one can discuss how far Nietzsche was influenced by the very common idea of the prospect of salvation. Nearly every religion has a concept of salvation, and one could defend that Nietzsche presents an atheistic, naturalistic account of such salvation.

Yes, I should have waited for someone with actual knowledge (i.e. you) to comment on that. While I am aware of Darwinistic influences, it was a long time ago when I read Nietzsche. While his anti-religious stance left a lasting impression (must be around high school/Abitur) I was a bit worried that my memory might conflate bits that should be attributed to his sister (and an overall social-darwinistic view).

And I agree, the idea of some sort of salvation or transcendence is very palpable in his writing (again, based on my limited understanding).

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, but was he rejecting the idea of a jesus?

The parable of a madman, in my opinion meant that without god humanity was without a rudder, or a source of enlightening and that the Übermensch, would fill the gap; "cometh the hour cometh the man".

@Eise +1

 

But here you will need to define what you think an "idea of a Jesus" is. In the Christian religious sense, no. But if you mean Jesus as as stand-in for an enlightened (whatever that may be) person, then perhaps but specifically for Nietzsche the wording might be awkward. One big difference (again, in my mind) beside the organized religion part is that Jesus gathered followers whereas Nietzsche was also preaching to some degree, but focused on individualism.

While I agree, that in the parable Nietzsche establishes that without the "sun (i.e. religion)" as a guiding post, there is a need to find an alternative (or else being lost in nihilism). 

But as such, I semi-disagree that the Uebermensch fills the role of the god.  The reasons is that phrasing could imply another sole source of hierarchical morality. Rather, the idea alludes to an human ideal that folks should strive towards. The gap would not be filled by a being, but by humanity. A new village has to be constructed in which the villagers remove themselves from using outdated (and objective) morals but rather define it anew. 

[Eise]

14 hours ago, CharonY said:

Yes, I should have waited for someone with actual knowledge (i.e. you) to comment on that.

No, no, maybe I should have said, I couldn't have formulated it better than you did. My study is already a long time ago, so my concrete (historical) knowledge of philosophers has slowly diminished. And Nietzsche was not my specialty. But what one doesn't lose so fast, is, if one call it such, a philosophical mentality. 

14 hours ago, CharonY said:

I was a bit worried that my memory might conflate bits that should be attributed to his sister (and an overall social-darwinistic view).

I think it is easy to distinguish Nietzsche from his sister's deformation of his philosophy: his sister identified 'Arians' (Germanics) with the Übermensch. And Nietzsche's 'Ansatz' was individualistic, not collectivist.

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, CharonY said:

Yes, I should have waited for someone with actual knowledge (i.e. you) to comment on that. While I am aware of Darwinistic influences, it was a long time ago when I read Nietzsche. While his anti-religious stance left a lasting impression (must be around high school/Abitur) I was a bit worried that my memory might conflate bits that should be attributed to his sister (and an overall social-darwinistic view).

And I agree, the idea of some sort of salvation or transcendence is very palpable in his writing (again, based on my limited understanding).

But here you will need to define what you think an "idea of a Jesus" is. In the Christian religious sense, no. But if you mean Jesus as as stand-in for an enlightened (whatever that may be) person, then perhaps but specifically for Nietzsche the wording might be awkward. One big difference (again, in my mind) beside the organized religion part is that Jesus gathered followers whereas Nietzsche was also preaching to some degree, but focused on individualism.

While I agree, that in the parable Nietzsche establishes that without the "sun (i.e. religion)" as a guiding post, there is a need to find an alternative (or else being lost in nihilism). 

But as such, I semi-disagree that the Uebermensch fills the role of the god.  The reasons is that phrasing could imply another sole source of hierarchical morality. Rather, the idea alludes to an human ideal that folks should strive towards. The gap would not be filled by a being, but by humanity. A new village has to be constructed in which the villagers remove themselves from using outdated (and objective) morals but rather define it anew. 

I think he may have realised, that the teaching's doesn't need a God to be valid, and that a 2nd coming (for want of a better phrase) is just someone like Jesus, Buddha et al, and would convince a lot of people to be content with their life; as I think the famous quote in the letter to his sister refers to, where he explains why he has to explore the truth of God and that she's allowed to be content.

20 hours ago, Steve81 said:

IMHO, the greatest power humans possess: the mind. See the movie Idiocracy for how that could play out. Spoiler alert, he was merely intelligent enough to realize you probably shouldn't water plants with Gatorade. 

Noted... 😣

[dimreepr]

5 hours ago, Eise said:

I think it is easy to distinguish Nietzsche from his sister's deformation of his philosophy: his sister identified 'Arians' (Germanics) with the Übermensch. And Nietzsche's 'Ansatz' was individualistic, not collectivist.

She might think he gave her permission too.