Jump to content
Othmane Dahi

reliable source?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Hey guys , 

So some Muslim people say that the prayer is scientifically healthy and I wanted to check if that is true. I looked for some source in google scholar and I didn't find any. I looked in google and found this website " https://www.heighpubs.org/jnpr/jnpr-aid1020.php " and I wanna know if this source is reliable or not since it is not my speciality

Edited by Othmane Dahi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I don't know that source, but if they reject the findings of the huge study done in 2006, I would say they are wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer#:~:text=Medical studies on prayer have,were prayed for or not.

The prayer in islam is not just having a wish and saying it to God as in this source you gave me, it's a mix of moves where they do different things

So I can't give a final judge about it

 

11 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

The prayer in islam is not just having a wish and saying it to God as in this source you gave me, it's a mix of moves where they do different things

So I can't give a final judge about it

 

the moves are cited in the website with pictures

Edited by Othmane Dahi
grammar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

The prayer in islam is not just having a wish and saying it to God as in this source you gave me, it's a mix of moves where they do different things

So I can't give a final judge about it

I'm not trying to judge, but adding movement into a prayer is unlikely to change the reasons why prayer offers no appreciable increase in health in humans. "Different things" isn't very specific, but if they exercise the cardiovascular system then they could be a factor in increased health.

19 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

the moves are cited in the website with pictures

Do they have evidence that (these moves + prayer) > (these moves - prayer) when it comes to health? That's what science requires. They need to show that it's not just the physical activity that improves health. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Do they have evidence that (these moves + prayer) > (these moves - prayer) when it comes to health? That's what science requires. They need to show that it's not just the physical activity that improves health. 

I agree, I just wanna see if these moves are good for health first, because if they don't then I don't even have to see other things and I ll conclude that there is no scientific prove that the moves are good in the first place

10 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm not trying to judge, but adding movement into a prayer is unlikely to change the reasons why prayer offers no appreciable increase in health in humans. "Different things" isn't very specific, but if they exercise the cardiovascular system then they could be a factor in increased health.

I assume that you saw the moves so maybe you got my point

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I agree, I just wanna see if these moves are good for health first, because if they don't then I don't even have to see other things and I ll conclude that there is no scientific prove that the moves are good in the first place

I assume that you saw the moves so maybe you got my point

I didn't see them. I was hoping you could describe what they're doing. I don't like to drive traffic to websites making unscientific claims.

I'm not sure pictures would let me judge whether "the moves" are good for health. Do the people look like they're in pain? Some exercise can be bad if you do it wrong, but in general, the types of moves I've seen done during Muslim prayers look benign (if somewhat hard on the knees). I'm not sure if it qualifies as good cardio. Do you know if they've ever hooked an adherent up to some diagnostic equipment for physiological testing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I didn't see them. I was hoping you could describe what they're doing. I don't like to drive traffic to websites making unscientific claims.

First they stand still then they bow with hands rested on the knees and the back held straight for a few seconds then they rise back to an erect posture then they go down on they knees and rests their hands and forehead on the ground in prostration then they get back to sit and finally resting their hands and forhead on the ground again and they repeat all of this in a mininmum of 12 times a day. They do 2 then 4 then 4 again then 3 then 4 during the day.

I didn't describe what they say during theses moves and te way they say them ( loud or not ).

I say this as someone who lived with muslims for 19 years

25 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm not sure pictures would let me judge whether "the moves" are good for health.

I don't expect that, I just wanna see there is a scientific article that says that as they say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

The prayer in islam is not just having a wish and saying it to God as in this source you gave me

The study seems to be cross-cultural, and it includes T'ai chi and yoga, for example. Some forms of Buddhist practice also involve running, clapping hands, stopping, sitting, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Do you know if they've ever hooked an adherent up to some diagnostic equipment for physiological testing?

No I don't

1 minute ago, joigus said:

The study seems to be cross-cultural, and it includes T'ai chi and yoga, for example. Some forms of Buddhist practice also involve running, clapping hands, stopping, sitting, etc.

But there is nothing on Islamic one there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

No I don't

But there is nothing on Islamic one there

Yes, you're right. It's not mentioned explicitly on the wiki article.

2 hours ago, Othmane Dahi said:

The prayer in islam is not just having a wish and saying it to God as in this source you gave me,

This is what you said. You implied it was only about having a wish and saying it to God. Taoism and Buddhism have no god. But they have moves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

13 minutes ago, joigus said:

Yes, you're right. It's not mentioned explicitly on the wiki article.

This is what you said. You implied it was only about having a wish and saying it to God. Taoism and Buddhism have no god. But they have moves.

Yeah you're right

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

First they stand still then they bow with hands rested on the knees and the back held straight for a few seconds then they rise back to an erect posture then they go down on they knees and rests their hands and forehead on the ground in prostration then they get back to sit and finally resting their hands and forhead on the ground again and they repeat all of this in a mininmum of 12 times a day. They do 2 then 4 then 4 again then 3 then 4 during the day.

It sounds like yoga. I predict the moves would be beneficial for anyone looking to tighten core muscles. 

1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I didn't describe what they say during theses moves and te way they say them ( loud or not ).

There is some evidence that a focus on positive thinking can benefit certain activities, but I've never heard of prayer (from any religion) being any better than other forms of positive reinforcement. Again, in order to test the hypothesis that Muslim prayer results in better overall health, you would need at least two other groups to test, one doing the moves without the prayer, and a control group who does none of it, to act as benchmark for the (move + prayer) and the (move - prayer) groups.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It sounds like yoga. I predict the moves would be beneficial for anyone looking to tighten core muscles. 

If it yes you solved my problem 

46 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It sounds like yoga. I predict the moves would be beneficial for anyone looking to tighten core muscles. 

There is some evidence that a focus on positive thinking can benefit certain activities, but I've never heard of prayer (from any religion) being any better than other forms of positive reinforcement. Again, in order to test the hypothesis that Muslim prayer results in better overall health, you would need at least two other groups to test, one doing the moves without the prayer, and a control group who does none of it, to act as benchmark for the (move + prayer) and the (move - prayer) groups.

Yeah I totally agree

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

Around the world, religion is , in fact, dying out.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

 

Who is praying for that to happen?

I really want someday people stop showing their children how the world is created and let them discover by themselves

I am actually studying religions to see if there is a good one and it is taking a lot of time from me and my parents are all upset about it and I hope at the end I find that no religion is actually true 

Edited by Othmane Dahi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I am actually studying religions to see if there is a good one and it is taking a lot of time from me and my parents are all upset about it and I hope at the end I find that no religion is actually true 

Looking for truth among religions (tens of thousands of differing sects) can be enlightening, I suppose. They all seem to have beliefs that are shrinking as we learn more about the natural world, and rely less on supernatural descriptions.

Science is more interested in our best current explanations for various phenomena. No truth, no proof, just mounds of evidence supporting theories based on precise and trustworthy methodology. This is the kind of explanation that drives out the ignorance we have about the world, and replaces it with knowledge that can be tested, so you don't have to rely on faith or hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Looking for truth among religions (tens of thousands of differing sects) can be enlightening, I suppose. They all seem to have beliefs that are shrinking as we learn more about the natural world, and rely less on supernatural descriptions.

Science is more interested in our best current explanations for various phenomena. No truth, no proof, just mounds of evidence supporting theories based on precise and trustworthy methodology. This is the kind of explanation that drives out the ignorance we have about the world, and replaces it with knowledge that can be tested, so you don't have to rely on faith or hope.

Well I am not gonna go over all the religions I want to have just a general knowledge about the most 5 popular religions and know the evidences they give and look for any contradictions to have some conclusions 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Well I am not gonna go over all the religions I want to have just a general knowledge about the most 5 popular religions and know the evidences they give and look for any contradictions to have some conclusions 

Popularity seems like the best measure of a religion. None of their gods are testable scientifically, so I'm not sure what kind of evidence you're talking about.

You won't find a religion that has evidence that their god is real. The Abrahamic god (2 of the 5 most popular religions) can't be observed, chooses to remain hidden, and therefore is considered super-natural with regard to scientific inquiry, which is focused on observing the natural world. The same seems to be true of Hinduism, and Buddhism doesn't have a god. You would have nothing trustworthy to base conclusions on.

How can you overcome those contradictions with more religion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Popularity seems like the best measure of a religion. None of their gods are testable scientifically, so I'm not sure what kind of evidence you're talking about.

Well they give some evidences like this one with muslims, and no one can say that if we don't discover smth scientifically than it is wrong

5 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Well they give some evidences like this one with muslims, and no one can say that if we don't discover smth scientifically than it is wrong

I just want to be objective as much as I can so I have no doubts

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Popularity seems like the best measure of a religion. None of their gods are testable scientifically, so I'm not sure what kind of evidence you're talking about.

You won't find a religion that has evidence that their god is real. The Abrahamic god (2 of the 5 most popular religions) can't be observed, chooses to remain hidden, and therefore is considered super-natural with regard to scientific inquiry, which is focused on observing the natural world. The same seems to be true of Hinduism, and Buddhism doesn't have a god. You would have nothing trustworthy to base conclusions on.

How can you overcome those contradictions with more religion?

I just wanna assume all what they believe in and come up with contradictions in their books logically. That's my plan anw. 

5 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I just wanna assume all what they believe in and come up with contradictions in their books logically. That's my plan anw. 

I already started with Islam and found some contradictions in their book

 

Edited by Othmane Dahi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Well they give some evidences like this one with muslims, and no one can say that if we don't discover smth scientifically than it is wrong

I'm trying to say that this isn't good supportive evidence for arguing that Muslim prayers have a better effect on health than a similar amount of exercise without prayer.

14 hours ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I just want to be objective as much as I can so I have no doubts

A little doubt is called skepticism, and I think it's a good thing. It keeps us always questioning our current explanations to make sure they're as accurate as they can be.

14 hours ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I just wanna assume all what they believe in and come up with contradictions in their books logically. That's my plan anw. 

Those books are full of contradictions. If that's your criteria for judging their worth, how many contradictions are you looking for? If you find 3, will you continue until you find 10 (or 20, 20 is a good number)? If you find the right number of contradictions, will you assume that religion is false, or not worthy of your support? 

14 hours ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I already started with Islam and found some contradictions in their book

Have you determined how you'll judge what a contradiction is? Can it be little things, like claiming in one passage that Prophet X stayed in the city four days and nights, while another passage says he stayed a week? Or are you only looking for the big stuff, like the errors in the days of creation between Genesis 1 & 2?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I'm trying to say that this isn't good supportive evidence for arguing that Muslim prayers have a better effect on health than a similar amount of exercise without prayer.

I think you didn't quite get what they are saying. They don't say that what they say (wishes, verses of the Quran ...) makes it healthy, they refer only to the moves when they say it's scientifically proven that it is healthy. Even though I found something reliable now(https://www.annsaudimed.net/doi/full/10.5144/0256-4947.2002.177), it doesn't mean that Islam is the religion I should believe in because they are just some normal moves that we do every day. 

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

A little doubt is called skepticism, and I think it's a good thing.

I agree and I like it, but when it comes to something I will believe in for the rest of my life I just prefer to be as sure as possible

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Those books are full of contradictions.

Well I didn't read them. And muslims say that the Quran has no contradictions. And whenever I search online for contradictions in the Quran I find a lot of scandal and a lot of logical mistakes so I prefer to read the book my self instead of reading this kind of things

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

If that's your criteria for judging their worth, how many contradictions are you looking for?

It's not about the number. I can find one and it will be enough but it should be undoubtfull and no logical person will say that it's true, because the problem is in definitions and interpretations.

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I'm trying to say that this isn't good supportive evidence for arguing that Muslim prayers have a better effect on health than a similar amount of exercise without prayer.

A little doubt is called skepticism, and I think it's a good thing. It keeps us always questioning our current explanations to make sure they're as accurate as they can be.

Those books are full of contradictions. If that's your criteria for judging their worth, how many contradictions are you looking for? If you find 3, will you continue until you find 10 (or 20, 20 is a good number)? If you find the right number of contradictions, will you assume that religion is false, or not worthy of your support? 

Have you determined how you'll judge what a contradiction is? Can it be little things, like claiming in one passage that Prophet X stayed in the city four days and nights, while another passage says he stayed a week? Or are you only looking for the big stuff, like the errors in the days of creation between Genesis 1 & 2?

If you know some contradictions in Islam I really hope you can show them to me to evaluate them 

And thanks for the help I really appreciate it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

It's not about the number. I can find one and it will be enough but it should be undoubtfull and no logical person will say that it's true, because the problem is in definitions and interpretations.

You're right, one should be enough. Unfortunately, you're confusing logic with critical thought. Logic doesn't mean "this makes sense to me". Formal logic is for philosophy and maths. Science uses reasoned, critical thinking in order to avoid the subjectiveness of personal intuition.

Quranic stories tend towards more morality and less detail than Biblical ones, which makes it tough to judge. All the Abrahamic religions mention the Flood, which is an automatic science contradiction (it would require way more water than the Earth has, and floods leave evidence which we don't find). The Quran introduces a fourth son of Noah who didn't believe, went to a mountaintop instead of the ark, and drowned. Neither the Bible or the Torah mention him, and you'd think they'd both jump at the chance to show what happens when you cross God.

 

2 hours ago, Othmane Dahi said:

And muslims say that the Quran has no contradictions. And whenever I search online for contradictions in the Quran I find a lot of scandal and a lot of logical mistakes so I prefer to read the book my self instead of reading this kind of things

Christians often say the same thing about the Bible, and when I mention that Genesis 1 says God created animals on a different day than Genesis 2 does, I'm told it's simply not a contradiction. Anything open to interpretation is going to be difficult to pin down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You're right, one should be enough. Unfortunately, you're confusing logic with critical thought. Logic doesn't mean "this makes sense to me". Formal logic is for philosophy and maths. Science uses reasoned, critical thinking in order to avoid the subjectiveness of personal intuition.

I don't think you got my point. I do realize the difference. What I am trying to say is that the problem in definitions and the way Quran is written. For example we go to a muslim and we say hey I found a contradiction in this verse and he says no because the contradiction you got is based on your own understanding of the verse but the actual verse doesn't mean what you understood. And that's what I mean by "undoubtful and no logic person can say it's wrong despite of the meaning he wants to give to the verse"

16 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Quranic stories tend towards more morality and less detail than Biblical ones, which makes it tough to judge. All the Abrahamic religions mention the Flood, which is an automatic science contradiction (it would require way more water than the Earth has, and floods leave evidence which we don't find). The Quran introduces a fourth son of Noah who didn't believe, went to a mountaintop instead of the ark, and drowned. Neither the Bible or the Torah mention him, and you'd think they'd both jump at the chance to show what happens when you cross God.

this is a good point, but I have no intension to find contradictions in the stories.Well, maybe I can but it's not my main plan any way. I will primally search in verses that give some general truthes etc.

16 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Christians often say the same thing about the Bible, and when I mention that Genesis 1 says God created animals on a different day than Genesis 2 does, I'm told it's simply not a contradiction. Anything open to interpretation is going to be difficult to pin down.

I don't know what Genesis mean is it something in the Bible ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

What I am trying to say is that the problem in definitions and the way Quran is written. For example we go to a muslim and we say hey I found a contradiction in this verse and he says no because the contradiction you got is based on your own understanding of the verse but the actual verse doesn't mean what you understood. And that's what I mean by "undoubtful and no logic person can say it's wrong despite of the meaning he wants to give to the verse"

Perhaps that's all the contradiction one should need.

1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I don't know what Genesis mean is it something in the Bible ?

It's the creation story, the first book of both the Bible and the Torah. It describes the six days of creation, but in two versions that sometimes conflict with each other.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

It's the creation story, the first book of both the Bible and the Torah. It describes the six days of creation, but in two versions that sometimes conflict with each other.

That's a good example to explain what I meant. You may say now that six days is too small and we all know that six days we know is too small for the period it took for our universe to be constructed but they wil say six days means six periods of time

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Perhaps that's all the contradiction one should need.

Exactly, that's what I want

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

That's a good example to explain what I meant. You may say now that six days is too small and we all know that six days we know is too small for the period it took for our universe to be constructed but they wil say six days means six periods of time

That seems like a semantics argument. I'm talking about actual contradictions. In Genesis 1, animals are created before man, and in Genesis 2, man  is created before animals. 

In the Quran, I know there are multiple references to the first Muslim. Was it Muhammad, or Joseph, or Moses, or Abraham? All are named as chosen by Allah, but Muhammad can't be first if those earlier men are considered worshipers of Islam. Being "first" is fairly unambiguous, so this seems like another actual contradiction. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.