# Argon plasma energy testing

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Introduction:

As you know, Argon gas is an insulator used in the light bulb, but when it is given enough current it creates a chain reaction on the gas molecules and turns into Argon plasma like those inert gas globe shown below. This post is about theorizing the amount of energy/electron density you can generate from Argon gas.

Observation:

So I took a look at ICP listed below.

It generates an electron density of 10^15 electrons per cm^3 using electromagnetic inductive process, but that is not enough energy for me, I am looking for 10^31 electrons per cm^3.

To achieve this I will have to first compress the Argon gas to some multiples of the atmospheric pressure, I am thinking 5 atm. But I will need a container to do this, I am looking for a really strong type of glass that would withstand the pressure and the thermal energy that would be generated in this medium some 1 million kelvin.

But at 5 atm it is just (10^15) * 5, it is not anywhere close to 10^31,  and I am not even sure if you can light up the Argon plasma at this pressure. I am thinking of beaming a laser at this Argon gas pressurized in a glass medium and hopefully it would achieve the result of 10^31 electrons per cm^3. Like what Iron Man did here.

If you are thinking of plasma fusion it generates an order of 10^21 electrons per meter^3, much less than the desire results. Although it is much more easily controlled through a magnetic field.

So my question is.

1. How do you generate a 10^31 electrons per cm^3 of electron density from Argon gas? Let me know at what pressure(atm) and the way to light the plasma gas uniformly(wire spark vs laser).

2. What type of material could withstand the heat and pressure generated from 10^31 electrons per cm^3 density of Argon gas?

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Posted (edited)

This post is about theorizing the amount of energy/electron density you can generate from Argon gas.

What makes you think you can generate energy from argon?

It is chemically inert. And, as far as I know, all its isotopes are stable. So it is not a source of either chemical or nuclear energy.

Generating a plasma requires you to provide energy.

1. How do you generate a 10^31 electrons per cm^3 of electron density from Argon gas? Let me know at what pressure(atm) and the way to light the plasma gas uniformly(wire spark vs laser).

This is very near to a vacuum. (It takes much less energy to create a plasma at low pressure.)

Edited by Strange

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Why is this speculations? Seems to me this is a matter of established physics.

Anyway, 10^31 electrons/cm^3 probably isn’t anywhere close to happening. That’s ~10 million moles. How do you get that kind of density?

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3 minutes ago, swansont said:

Why is thus speculations? Seems to me this is a matter of established physics.

Anyway, 10^31 electrons/cm^3 probably isn’t anywhere close to happening. That’s ~10 million moles. How do you get that kind of density?

My fault, it is over meter cube as I checked just now. This is from an article.

This is on 150atm(150 times atmospheric pressure), which get 10^27 electrons per meter cube. Although I am yet to find an energy equation for plasma.

Do I assume 1 ev for each electron, kindly give me an answer @@ thanks, (1 eV = 1.6 x 10-19 Joules)

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Although I am yet to find an energy equation for plasma.

Do I assume 1 ev for each electron, kindly give me an answer @@ thanks, (1 eV = 1.6 x 10-19 Joules)

The ionisation energy for argon can be found easily.  For example:

Quote

These tables list values of molar ionization energies, measured in kJ mol−1. This is the energy per mole necessary to remove electrons from gaseous atoms or atomic ions. The first molar ionization energy applies to the neutral atoms. The second, third, etc., molar ionization energy applies to the further removal of an electron from a singly, doubly, etc., charged ion. For ionization energies measured in the unit eV, see Ionization energies of the elements (data page). All data from rutherfordium onwards is predicted.

 18 Ar argon 1520.6 2665.8 3931 5771 7238 8781 11,995 13,842 40,760 46,186

This is the amount of energy you need to provide to create a plasma.

So, if you have 10^31 atoms (to create 10^31 electrons) then that is about 10 million moles. So the energy needed is 10^7 * 1520 kJ or about 10^10 joules. Which is a lot.

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My fault, it is over meter cube as I checked just now. This is from an article.

This is on 150atm(150 times atmospheric pressure), which get 10^27 electrons per meter cube. Although I am yet to find an energy equation for plasma.

That puts you 4 orders of magnitude short

Do I assume 1 ev for each electron, kindly give me an answer @@ thanks, (1 eV = 1.6 x 10-19 Joules)

No, don’t assume that. Go find the ionization energy of Argon.

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It's never a good sign when someone says "I want to do this" and cites a clip from an action movie.

Also

I am looking for a really strong type of glass that would withstand the pressure and the thermal energy that would be generated in this medium some 1 million kelvin.

Nothing will stand a million K.

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Aluminum has a number density of 0.1 moles/cm^3 (2.7 g/cm^3 vs 27g atomic weight)

You’re asking for a density 100x higher. Not happening.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Strange said:

The ionisation energy for argon can be found easily.  For example:

This is the amount of energy you need to provide to create a plasma.

So, if you have 10^31 atoms (to create 10^31 electrons) then that is about 10 million moles. So the energy needed is 10^7 * 1520 kJ or about 10^10 joules. Which is a lot.

Thanks for the calculation, appreciate it. You are missing three zeros, it is actually 10^13 joules. Conversion from KJ net three zeros.

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Thanks for the calculation, appreciate it. You are missing three zeros, it is actually 10^13 joules. Conversion from KJ net three zeros.

Well spotted. (I suppose you wouldn't believe I did that deliberately as a test? No, I thought not.)

Quote

10^13 Joules: Energy of the maximum fuel an Airbus A380 can carry (320,000 liters[145] of Jet A-1[136])[146]

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1 hour ago, Strange said:

Well spotted. (I suppose you wouldn't believe I did that deliberately as a test? No, I thought not.)

Silly Strange always hiding something :D, I found the full article with a schematic of the experimental setup. Though they did not mention the material used for the chamber.

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I found the full article with a schematic of the experimental setup. Though they did not mention the material used for the chamber.

As the plasma was only a few millimetres in size and at the centre of the gas chamber, I would guess it is made of metal. Seems the obvious material strong enough to withstand the pressure.

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17 minutes ago, Strange said:

As the plasma was only a few millimetres in size and at the centre of the gas chamber, I would guess it is made of metal. Seems the obvious material strong enough to withstand the pressure.

I guess we need to contain it in a magnetic field coils.  Argon gas is not paramagnetic but plasma is paramagnetic.

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I guess we need to contain it in a magnetic field coils.  Argon gas is not paramagnetic but plasma is paramagnetic.

Citation?

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I guess we need to contain it in a magnetic field coils.  Argon gas is not paramagnetic but plasma is paramagnetic.

What magnetic field coils? There is nothing about that in the paper.

The laser pulse lasts a few picoseconds and is focussed on a point a fraction of a millimetre in size.

(Ironically, given the title of the thread, some excimer lasers use argon)

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18 hours ago, Strange said:

What magnetic field coils? There is nothing about that in the paper.

The laser pulse lasts a few picoseconds and is focussed on a point a fraction of a millimetre in size.

(Ironically, given the title of the thread, some excimer lasers use argon)

It is not in the paper, I am looking into plasma fusion reactor like Tokamak.

Thought this can be applied to Argon plasma with magnetic confinement, just not the fusion part.

19 hours ago, swansont said:

Citation?

Noted above

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Noted above

Where, exactly? Not the video; that wasn't a plasma. The tokamak link says plasma is diamagnetic.

Posted (edited)

### Magnetic confinement

When heated to fusion temperatures, the electrons in atoms disassociate, resulting in a fluid of nuclei and electrons known as a plasma. Unlike electrically neutral atoms, a plasma is electrically conductive, and can, therefore, be manipulated by electrical or magnetic fields.[16]

### Magnetic confinement

When heated to fusion temperatures, the electrons in atoms disassociate, resulting in a fluid of nuclei and electrons known as a plasma. Unlike electrically neutral atoms, a plasma is electrically conductive, and can, therefore, be manipulated by electrical or magnetic fields.[16]

Charges are moving around, so of course it reacts to a magnetic field. That's a very different claim from saying it's paramagnetic.

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Thought this can be applied to Argon plasma with magnetic confinement, just not the fusion part.

If there is no fusion what is the point? You are just pouring vast amounts of energy in to maintain a plasma. For what?

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11 hours ago, Strange said:

If there is no fusion what is the point? You are just pouring vast amounts of energy in to maintain a plasma. For what?

Space jumping >.<.
Is it possible to increase air pressure in a confined magnetic field?

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Is it possible to increase air pressure in a confined magnetic field?

As they are independent* phenomena, sure.

*in most cases

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Space jumping >.<.

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1 hour ago, swansont said:

As they are independent* phenomena, sure.

*in most cases

Something like star formation, the factor I need to add in is pressure.

10 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

I was kidding, man you are too serious = =.

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Something like star formation, the factor I need to add in is pressure.

I was kidding, man you are too serious = =.

Do you actually plan to answer the question?

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