blike Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 How do you guys feel about medically treating illegal aliens in your country? Lets say for instance an illegal alien comes into the emergency room and needs some sort of immediate, expensive care. More than likely the hospital will automatically treat him before they can obtain an extensive history. Should this patient be treated? What happens to him after the treatment? Should he receive followup care? Who pays for his bills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisy Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Well, in Daisy's ideal world everyone gets treated no matter what. I realise that someone foots the bill at the end of the day but I really do wish for a world where medical care does NOT come down to money and everyone gets what they need - illegal immigrant or not. I know this is impossible but it's what I truly wish for. I hate when life and death issues come down to money but I don't have an answer - I'm not an accountant (thank God). Oh dear I've gone all maudlin and sentimental - slap me someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mattson Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 By all means, if anyone comes into a hospital needing treatment, they should get it. The answer to this problem is not to pass a law that forces doctors to let people die in front of them. The answer is to be found in taking steps to get our neighbors (*cough Mexico cough*) back on their feet. If we grant some assistance to get their economy self-sufficient on the condition that they clean up their government (especially their police department, one of the world's most corrupt), then the citizens might actually want to stay there. Originally posted by daisyI realise that someone foots the bill at the end of the day but I really do wish for a world where medical care does NOT come down to money and everyone gets what they need The basic problem with that is that if medicine were socialized, it would not be as advanced as it is today. Things like MRI, PET scan, CAT scan, EEG, EKG, advanced surgical procedures and medications, etc. are only possible because of American capitalism. In the large scale, socialization stifles the spirit of invention, because people want to get paid for their ideas. So if we did live in a world in which everyone gets what they need, you would probably be getting treated with leeches. My $0.02. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 As for giving free care to illegal aliens... we need to be doing more to keep them out of the country. If they're here and need medical treatment, it should be provided, but they should not be here to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Originally posted by fafalone As for giving free care to illegal aliens... we need to be doing more to keep them out of the country. If they're here and need medical treatment, it should be provided, but they should not be here to begin with. How things change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blike Posted May 24, 2003 Author Share Posted May 24, 2003 necessity dictates change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Men dictate necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I'm with Fafalone on this one. The problem of illegal immigrants (apparently getting quite bad here, depending on what papers you read) is an economic/political one and needs to be adressed. But the problem of somebody admitted into A&E is a medical one, and less difficult. They are treated (as anybody in that state should be). It does cost the taxpayer, and that is irritating many people. However, as a proportion of overall cases admitted, illegal immigrants don't account for that many. It's not only illegal immigrants though. At the hospital I worked at (a large London teaching hospital) it was noticed that a large number of pregnant women were coming to London for 'holidays', very close to term. They would stay in London long enough to go into labour, be brought into A&E by ambulance and be admitted into the labour ward to give birth. Once they were discharged, they would go back home to America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 If they're in London on holiday, surely they aren't an illegal alien...? Anybody else think it would be interesting to get hold of figures on the actual cost and range of this problem? I'm of the opinion that nobody should be denied medical assistance, no matter what excuses the people 'in charge' come up with. However a system does need to be developed that can somehow mitigate the financial effect of other countries' patients on a health system, even if it just means invoicing their government (he he he). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 No...hence the term "It's not only illegal immigrants...". I definitley think it would help if all the separate trusts pooled their data on this issue. I agree. There are no ground for withholding treatment from those in genuine need. I also agree that some system to redress the imbalance caused by non-nationals (i.e. those who haven't been paying for the NHS), seeking 'free', high quality treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Do Americans have to insure themselves to come here, like we do if we go there? they should have to, and then these women can argue it out with their insurance companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 I don't know to be honest. But can you imagine the arguments? "...but how was I supposed to know I was about to give birth?"...hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 perhaps they should be given sex education lessons before they come here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blike Posted May 26, 2003 Author Share Posted May 26, 2003 Wouldn't it be about as expensive to fly to london, find a place to stay, and then fly back as it would be just to have the baby here in america?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 You'd think so, wouldn't you? But if you think of the logistics involved, not to mention travelling all that way whilst heavily pregnant (flying isn't a good idea when you're that pregnant either), they must have a pretty good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Flying round trip to London, first class, and staying in a 5 star hotel, is still far less expensive then giving birth in an American hospital if you don't have insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 I think you can get returns to new york for a couple of hundred dollars. I know people who fly to the US and buy laptops there, because it is worth it. Having a baby in the US is probably more expensive. oh and faf, people stay in hospital for the duration here, no need to run off to a hotel to recover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Something tells me running off to a hotel to recover is probably preferable if you have the spare cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 I think hospitals are alot better than the media says. plus I would rather be looked after by someone who knows what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 :raisingbotheyebrowsatonceincomplexexpression: Pregnant are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Originally posted by Sayonara³ :raisingbotheyebrowsatonceincomplexexpression: Pregnant are we? well I dunno about you a ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Hmmm. Stop trying to deflect attention away from your condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Tom The basic problem with that is that if medicine were socialized, it would not be as advanced as it is today. Things like MRI, PET scan, CAT scan, EEG, EKG, advanced surgical procedures and medications, etc. are only possible because of American capitalism. In the large scale, socialization stifles the spirit of invention, because people want to get paid for their ideas. So if we did live in a world in which everyone gets what they need, you would probably be getting treated with leeches. My $0.02. Tom First, socializing 'medicine' is a broad concept; there's no reason why care cannot be financed publicly while research remains private. Second, the meaning of 'american capitalism' has changed over the decades so that the stock-market-dominated "financial engineering" model that has now emerged is actually taking money away from research budgets (as the most productive R&D in patent terms is actually long term 'pure' research, which doesn't do much when profits are measured across financial quarters). Third, such pure research is actually largely the fruit of public expenditure - the US leads in this field not because the US patent model is stronger (international IPR treaties now make the US patent office the de facto arbiter anyway, certainly in the west) but because US public expenditure on research actually exceeds european expenditure as a proportion of GDP (though this is falling). Fourth, for SOME REASON cuba has a strong biomed sector. work that one out. Fifth, intellectual productivity under, say, the german version of capitalism is as strong as under the US system, due to their massive publicly funded network of training and research institutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepultallica Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 i'll throw out an idea, what if the government were to monopolize hospitals, clinics and any other medical establishment? that would end the problem wouldn't it? all would get the help they needed and nobody would lose from persons not beiong able to pay. i'm sure they could get the irs involved in the process to enforce payment, ins to monitor illegal patients. the medical field is a highly profitable industry. the government wouldn't lose. i think programs could get started for insurance companies as well. this is a premature idea and i haven't put much thought into it so don't kill me outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Take a look at the NHS we have in the UK and you'll see how such a system rapidly gets turned into a politicians' laundromat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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