njaohnt

Can somebody give a direct answer to my question? I know there have been a few, but lets get this thread back on track shall we?

There isn't an answer, if you ask me.

You are not God. You have seen what He has done, but you have not seen Him. You can't answer that question. There are a lot of assumptions.

You're not Dovoda by any chance are you? If your are, then you would be a sockpuppet and the hounds are probably already on their way.

I am really sure that that is incorrect.

If you think of atheism as a religion, then you should also think of bald as a hair color and "not stamp collecting" as a hobby.

Well, not a hair colour, but a type of hair.

I don't see how stamp collecting, and "'not stamp collecting'" relate to atheism, and Christianity.

If I was to believe you owed me a million dollars, would that be enough to make it true? No. If it did, then you would owe me one million dollars (so if you think just belieing something to be true makes it so, then pay up ).

Now that you have said "you owed me a million dollars", let's say that you really mean it.

There is evidence that I owe you 1 000 000 dollars, that post.

Now that's not much evidence, but it is still evidence. If I deny that I owe you it, there is evidence against it.

See what I mean. The Bible is evidence. No matter what you say. Are you saying that everything that you say isn't evidence, because of much of the reasons that you put evidence against God, is just something you put? Yes, you are putting evidence. So is the Bible. Were you with them while they wrote the Bible? No. You don't have much evidence that people even wrote the Bible.

 

But lets look at yourself. If you wrote on average 1,000 words a day, it would only take you 770 days to reach the amount of words you have used as the example.

 

1,000 words a day might sound like a lot, but in this post I have already written 110 words (not counting numbers) and this only took me around 2 minutes to do. this means 1,000 words should only take me around 20 minutes to write the 1,000 words.

 

Or to put it another way the 770,00 words would only take me around 10 days of continuous work.

 

hmm, only 10 days. not a lot is it. If I wanted to fool people, that is not a lot of effort is it.

 

 

 

Yea, but how many copies did they make. They didn't have photocopiers.

Oh, I just looked at 999's profile. To bad Dovoda, try again.

Evidence of what?

Look at the title. "Christian Evidence" usually means evidence of God, and the Bible.

I used to do this in elementary school when the teacher made us write a five-page report and I didn't have much to say. Bigger writing takes up more room and makes it look like you have more than you actually do.

 

 

In this case, you may want to try size 7.

Maybe you want to use Size 7 for evidence against Christianity.

the point of this thread is to let njaohnt roll out more of his horse feathers, I for one am tired of him just repeating religious assertions that have no support over and over again...

No, that is wrong. The purpose is so that I can show people that God is real (or, if you wish to, to show me that He isn't, which that is horse feathers).

Thank you. If I used your idea, you got a +!

It is evidence! Think about its history.

The Bible is said to have been found in scrolls near and in Isreal. There is no way that it has come from different scrolls all over the place, yet don't deny each other, if they weren't God-breathed, so they must have been…

The only arguments to that are.

1. They didn't find the scrolls, they made it up.

Would you write over 770 000 words just for the fun of making people believe false things?

2. They found the scrolls, but they changed it along the way.

Again, would you write out that many words, in hundreds of copies to trick someone, and for no other reason?

 

More evidence? The people translating, and copying the Bible were punished, and often killed. That's worth a trick?

 

Also, though the Bible's many copies almost all got burned, not all ever got burned. That's not God's protection?

 

Maybe you don't believe their history, but that is no better than believing these atheist scientists.

You say that they have evidence, but have you done their experiments? Why believe them? The Earth could be flat, I don't think it is, but I haven't done experiments to figure that out.

No, it was in this topic.

Hello. Here I want to hear all the evidence that the Christians have. If you have evidence, please do this.

Evidence:

some evidence

some evidence

some evidence

Note that "Evidence" is size 4, and "some evidence" is size 3.

As a parent I try to teach my children 2 basic boundaries;

 

1 How to be safe (i.e. don’t jump of that building or run onto a busy road).

 

2 How to interact with other humans (i.e. be sociable)

 

This for me will give them the best chance of living a rich and meaningful life.

 

Why do we need to teach a lot of contradictory rules that can only confuse them? You are perfectly entitled to your beliefs but teaching them without understanding, perfectly, what the bible is trying to teach is just blind faith and as such has no value.

So you have said nothing about how God can't exsist (yes His charictaristics, but those are from the Bible), the Bible, yes, but not God Himself.

Yet you choose to teach your children that there is no such thing. Tell me. Where did physics come from? No atheist has ever answered that. If you can't answer it, then why do choose to teach your kids what you can't answer, because then it is not true. Saying there is not enough evidence to prove anything would be better, kind of, and more understandable.

Is that why your religion is so laughable?

 

The more people laugh at your ridiculous beliefs, the more you are rewarded?

Possibly.

Does Matthew have anything to say about self righteousness?

 

"I did put evidence. If I didn't then that was in another topic. Tell me if I did put it in another topic."

Stop being all talk and no trousers and cite that evidence (again if you cited it before). Please note that the bible is not evidence.

 

"Good post. I'm not sure how someone could press the minus. "

I worked it out.

I'm not sure what you mean by self righteousness. Being good to yourself, no. Taking care of your self, yes. Anything else you meant.

I asked for clarification, you have already stated your stance, why do you feel that way? God didn't create the earth? That I would have to agree with...

I think creatation has a lot to religion.

That's some revisionist history. People were practically begging you to expand on your claims by introducing evidence, but you did not.

 

 

 

One of the few things you've gotten right in your time here.

Expand yours. It will give ideas on what to say.

If I started a religion I would write that in my holy book too. "Don't listen to anyone else, don't listen to logic, if you are reading this you are right", don't you think it will help me from losing my followers to other religions or secularism? It's like evolution for religions. Religions that have verses like that in their official scriptures have a defense mechanism against logic. Convenient to say the least.

Yes, I know, this was to say that I don't care how much you laugh. Not about the Book's trueness.

I really think that the moderators are more strict with Christians, just because they believe in it. Think of Atheism as a religion, which it is, it follows all the religious rules to be a religion.

Now all I have said was the things that make me believe. Show me where I haven't done that. So here's what I say…

…

Dovada, do your reputation a favour, stop posting. They say that you are preaching (even though they're doing the same thing), so stop, you are not going to convince them, unless you get "hard evidence". Therefore, everytime that you find some good evidence, post it in my "Christian evidence" topic, that I will make tomarrow.

I shall do the same. Atheists, I recommend making "Athiest evidence" topic.

"In fact, far from telling believers to shut up, we WANT them to keep talking. Because that is how their ideas are exposed to light and – inevitably – laughter.

 

In the end, there is only one solution available to those who don't want their beliefs to be laughed at: stop believing funny things."

 

-- "Mohammed Jones," pseudonym for the author of Jesus and Mo

That is just what the Bible says is good. "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. " Matthew 5:10 NIV

So the more you keep laughing, the more of the kingdom of heaven I'll get.

It also says in verses 11, and 12 "¹¹ "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. ¹² Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."" NIV

There are a number of rules here.

If you break them then the mods point it out.

What did you expect?

That's what you signed up to.

Had you forgotten- or did you think the rule about "no preaching" didn't apply to you?

(On a related matter, what part off "do not reply to this modnote" did you not understand?

 

It's not a thing about religious people- there are plenty of them here.

It's a thing about the utter waste of time that arises when "believers" keep on stating their opinion as if it's a fact and don't (or won't) realise that no book is evidence.

It just degenerates into a childish argument "It Is!" "No it Isn't!" so it's sensible to ban it from the start.

I did put evidence. If I didn't then that was in another topic. Tell me if I did put it in another topic.

Please clarify this, you don't think the formation of the earth has anything to do with religion?

Yes, I do.

Of course. He only meant that we should respect HIS beliefs, but not those of others. Got it! Thanks for clearing things up for us.

We are talking about religious beliefs, more so about creation of the world, those have nothing to do with religion.

Assuming one is married and has kids, do the parents solver all the problems of their children or do they let them solve them on their own for the most part?

 

As for me I'm hopelessly in debt to Jesus the Christ. As for astrophysics, we only have to apply Classic physics to the discoveries we see in prototplyds (ProtoPlanetaryDisks) to know that the planets contract and start life long before the star ignites. The power of God is as powerful as the predator primus would be. If His power is based upon the vacuum fluctuation, He is infinitely powerful. If His power is based upon the finite matter in all existence, then His power is limited by that quantity of mass. It doesn't matter. He's still unfathomablt more "everything" than we are.

Good post. I'm not sure how someone could press the minus. I pressed the plus.

If I cannot tell people what I think without getting a red Modnote, then I guess I'll have to leave. There is evidence, no matter what you say, so I guess there is just a thing against religious people. This is not where I want to be, then.

What?!

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/

 

 

Show me 1 piece of evidence that the bible is true

Round earth.

I have only seen the time zones.

Bible.

I showed tons of evidence in another post (maybe this the wrong topic, remember 770 000 words of the Bible? If not, tell me, I will show you the post)

OK, for a start I already showed you where. It's really helpful if you look at things.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#contradictions

All of those are possible. From MIRICLES, or not, they are possible. If you disagree show me one.

And, though the questions were not really directed to me.

Who gets to decide which beliefs are respected and which are not?

Re. "Evidence from where"

Anywhere.

Exactly. Later you say that just writing stuff down doesn't make it evidence. So where?

This "Science is true, but it could not have come with out a god"is an un-evinced statement. It doesn't get close to counting as evidence.

Science can, perfectly easily be true without a God.

Then where did these physics come from. You're not going to win. Only a god could have done it, and the only god who could be true is God.

Yes, I see it gets foggier as you look at stuff that's further away.

And that has nothing to do with the issues.

The fact is that you have chosen to show the view from a tall building because, unless you are high up, you can't usually see far enough for that fogging to be visible. You have just proved my point. You can see further from higher up. The way in which the horizon recedes as you go up is dependent on the curvature of the earth.

You can't see that far because of the fog. How can you see that the earth is round, if you can't see far enough to see it recede?

Science works on a set of self-evident assumptions, if you think whatever science says is wrong or false then you have to show the scientific community as to what is wrong in those assumptions and why our perceptions misguide us about the true nature of God if he is real and has a basis in our reality. No body has shown evidence against those assumptions and this is the reason why I believe in science.

 

I personally have a neutral position towards all religions, not only bible, all religions of the world. If Trinity(Jesus, Father and Holy Spirit) is real then it will be revealed through revelations and once I have revelations then I have access to knowledge which others don't have then I might do some noble deeds or even perform some miracles, I can even pass on that knowledge to others and now this is what real knowledge is, if a religion is real then it has to come up with real knowledge. Therefore neither I say that Jesus exists nor I say that he doesn't exists, I don't know. If you can pass on some kind of real knowledge to me then sure I'll believe in Bible and even in Trinity without that why should I have to believe in Bible blindly. This is what Einstein meant when he said "Religion without science is blind". If you are believing it blindly then you're deluded.

 

One more important thing, first take off that extremist view from your signature saying "All atheists and non-Christians will go to hell". God protects everyone, you can believe in anything, I don't have anything personal against you but I seriously condemn your view.

I do think that God will be nice enough to save everyone, but if He doesn't I want to be on the Good side.

Still no hard evidence Dovada, which is what I am asking for.

And Evelution and the Big Bang have hard evidence?

Here's the thing, though. After you've been around these discussions for long enough you begin to realize that the error of thought and logical fallacies are not limited just to the fundamentalists. Even those rather intelligent, very rational, and mostly reasonable theists base their belief position on exactly the same unfounded, meritless, and ultimately rotten foundation.

No, I don't realize that. Show me where I look like I have found that.

 

because they do deny eachother.

 

No they don't. Show me where.

Have you even tried to understand the distinction between accepting something based on available evidence and believing something based on faith?

 

If so, why do you keep equating the two?

Evidence from where?

1 They are supported by evidence and the bible isn't, indeed it contradicts itself. Have a look here

http://www.infidels....#contradictions

 

2 What else would they have done it for? You pointed out that it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

3 the way in which the horizon recedes as you get higher is different for a flat earth, rather than a round one.

You did the experiment- you just didn't know how to interpret it correctly.

I think that's a bit silly.

1. Evidence of science. It is impossible for the rules of science to of created the universe, because matter "came from" physics. Where did those physics come from.

Science is true, but it could not have come with out a god. If you believe that, you will easily see that God is the true god, and not any other.

2. Yes. Why are you saying that?

3.

See how it gets foggier as you go farther? That is because of the water in the air (and other particles in the air) make it that way. I see no evidence of this "receding". Again, I am not saying that the earth is flat, I am just saying that you have just as much (if not, less) evidence of the earth being round as evidence of the Bible being true.

Still waiting

No you're not.

Here we go again... It's a bit sad that I have to recycle this point so many times.

 

No, we should NOT respect everyone's beliefs. I don't respect people who believe that having sex with animals is okay. I don't respect people who believe that all women want to be raped. I don't respect people who believe that people with darker skin are inferior, and I don't respect people who believe that putting cats into microwaves is a fun way to spend a Saturday.

 

I don't think he means those beliefs.

If you don't believe in science then why are you on the internet using a computer which was created by computer scientists which works solely based on scientific principles and morever why do you go to a doctor when you're ill, why do you take up medicines which are clinically tested and researched? Why? Can you see how absurd your question is?

I do believe in what they say. They seem to make sense. Just like the Bible does. My answer was not to say that you shouldn't believe them, but why should you believe them, and not the Bible?

"Know"

No. You think. Anyone could have got that data(Just wait, don't press the minus for this until I respond to the answer of this next question). Where does it say that they wanted power?

Actually, in all sensible probability, you have done the experiment.

Have you noticed that you can see further from higher up- say upstairs in a building or when you climb a hill and admire the view?

That only works because the earth is round.

Please don't waste people's time posting silly things like that.

No, that is wrong. Even if the earth was flat, you could still see farther. Don't call it silly, I am 99% sure that the earth is round, you responded as if I was only 60% sure of it.

As you have been told before the bible is not evidence, the bible is wrong, it is wrong abotu almost everything is claims, using as evidence is not acceptable.

It is evidence! Think about its history.

The Bible is said to have been found in scrolls near and in Isreal. There is no way that it has come from different scrolls all over the place, yet don't deny each other, if they weren't God-breathed, so they must have been…

The only arguments to that are.

1. They didn't find the scrolls, they made it up.

Would you write over 770 000 words just for the fun of making people believe false things?

2. They found the scrolls, but they changed it along the way.

Again, would you write out that many words, in hundreds of copies to trick someone, and for no other reason?

More evidence? The people translating, and copying the Bible were punished, and often killed. That's worth a trick?

Also, though the Bible's many copies almost all got burned, not all ever got burned. That's not God's protection?

Maybe you don't believe their history, but that is no better than believing these atheist scientists.

You say that they have evidence, but have you done their experiments? Why believe them? The Earth could be flat, I don't think it is, but I haven't done experiments to figure that out.

Here is a thought experiment:

 

You see someone torturing someone and you ask them why they are doing that. They answer: 'Because I choose to do so".

 

How would you then view this person: Good or Evil?

 

I think most people would consider them evil.

 

And now another thought experiment:

 

You read a story about the Ancient Greek God of the Underworld (Pluto) torturing someone: You ask Him why he is doing that. He answers: "Because I choose to do so".

 

Would you think that God is evil.

 

Apply this to any entity. If they don't have to cause suffering to someone, but they do because they choose to, then universally, they would be considered evil.

 

Thus, if any God chooses to cause suffering, then they are evil. It doesn't matter what their reason is, if they could choose not to cause suffering, but instead choose to cause suffering, then they are by definition evil.

 

If the Christian God is all powerful, then they could make the universe without suffering and still achieve whatever it is they wanted to achieve, if they can't then they are not all powerful and the Christian God is supposed to be all powerful.

 

So, the only reason that suffering is in the universe (if you believe that the Christian God created the universe that is) is because God chose to cause suffering. It is unnecessary in achieving whatever ends God wants to achieve as being all powerful, the presence or absence of suffering can not prevent that.

 

Thus, the only reason that suffering exists, is because God wanted us to suffer for the sake of suffering. This not to to teach us lessons, not to allow forgiveness, not because we sinned, or any other reason. All the other reasons could have been circumvented by God without violating anything like free will, or the ultimate ends He wants for the universe (or any single person - or even particle of matter if you want to go that far).

 

The only reason that an all powerful entity would create a universe with suffering in it is if that entity want us to suffer.

 

Now, think back to the start of this post. In each of those situations, the reason they were causing suffering is because they chose to and for no other reason. But it would be universally accepted, that an entity, whether a man or a God, that chose to cause suffering when it was not necessary was considered evil.

 

So, where does this put the Christian God?

You're not making sense… sort of.

You don't know how the world outside our world works.

Hard to explain why, but I can sort of figure it out why.

!

Moderator Note

njaohnt, this is a recurring theme with your posts, taking wild guesses and then stating them as fact to use in your arguments. This thread is rife with examples of this. Up to this point, the membership has done an amazing job of staying on top of your poorly crafted arguments and lack of rigor in discussing this subject, and I felt that any staff remarks would be redundant.

 

But I reread the thread and had to lend official support to what everyone here has been telling you. Your arguments are narrow-minded, lack even the barest support from observational evidence and show a complete lack of understanding of the difference between opinion and assertion.

 

Clearly, no one is learning anything from reading your posts (except about you personally, which they have been good enough to refrain from commenting about), and you haven't learned anything from anyone here. You don't show even a little interest in research on what's being given to you (if Hitler was the only person you knew from Arete's list of people, why didn't you bother to look some of them up?). I think you should truly question whether you're spending your time at the right site. We're going to continue to discuss and learn, and it's obvious those items are NOT on your agenda.

Why may I ask that you put that in a red Modnote?

It would not work.

 

If you think about how the field lines will interact you'll see for yourself

Oh, now I see.

Would this design work for a motor? Why wouldn't it (I am guessing that is doesn't since no one has developed this).

Blue is the south side of a magnet

Red is the north side of a magnet

Which rules are these? Could you list them?

Tons of them.

Magnets

Gravity

You get picture. Anything that happens in the universe. The reason why atheists believe that God isn't here, is that these rules don't support a God.

Because it is a big thing. That is like asking why Christians believe in God and why they relate their facts to God. Also, to us a god is a paradox. I find Christians neglect the fact how that if there is a god....... who created God? Yes, you may say that God has always been there but if God made man in his image, God must be made from matter. The universe is also made from matter (or energy) so isn't saying that even though matter doesn't have to be created (God)......... matter matter has to be created (the universe). Try hooking up your video camera on a live stream to your T.V and line it up so its dead on straight. The picture would keep on getting smaller and smaller and wouldn't stop getting smaller until the T.V ran out of pixels in the centre of the T.V. You wouldn't look at the end and see a god right at the end of the "tunnel" would you?

It's a paradox in my head and this is actually the first time I've ever mentioned it so if it's a bit hard to understand so if you have any questions or replies then please do.

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

With respect, Morgan.

God is not matter. The world outside our world works differently. I don't much about it.

Do you find it a rather silly thing to ascribe observed natural phenomena to a fairy tale with no basis in reality and no evidence whatsoever just because science cannot explain every small process in full and exact detail?

No, but your rules of science are impossible. Weather ours are or not, yours are.

1.Forgiveness for what? What debt, what evidence for this debt do you have?

 

2.One punishment for all crimes is not fair to begin with, eternal torment is cruel and the sign of a psychopathic monster not a god.

 

1. The Bible.

2. It is fair. You just don't understand it. Like I said, it's like gravity. Imagine that you are falling off a building that is, say 1 000 m high. You are going to die, right? No, there is an extremely stretchy trampoline at the bottom, and you don't die.

It is just the way things work. Was that trampoline fair? Should he of died? He is not a monster. If there was no trampoline, and you went to catch him, you would both die. Are you evil for not doing that? No. It is just the way things work outside our universe.

Maybe you should try harder

I have failed.

Done.

No

Agreed, you start

Very rude, indeed.

1.Forgiveness for what? What debt, what evidence for this debt do you have?

 

2.One punishment for all crimes is not fair to begin with, eternal torment is cruel and the sign of a psychopathic monster not a god.

 

1. The Bible.

2. It is fair. You just don't understand it. Like I said, it's like gravity. Imagine that you are falling off a building that is, say 1 000 m high. You are going to die, right? No, there is an extremely stretchy trampoline at the bottom, and you don't die.

It is just the way things work. Was that trampoline fair? Should he of died? He is not a monster. If there was no trampoline, and you went to catch him, you would both die. Are you evil for not doing that? No. It is just the way things work outside our universe.

I am the creator of the universe

 

I used my magical powers to produce everything you perceive

 

Prove me wrong

Okay. You are not the creator, because you have not done anything. You haven't made the universe. Why? Use your magical powers to make me feel that you're there. You haven't done any of the many things that my creator has done.

Prove me wrong.

Because, as I very plainly stated earlier in this exchange, I do not accept your book of fairy tales as unassailable truth like you do. I understand also that you don't like how blunt I am, and I stipulate that I have no patience for either your style or your approach. Let me remind you that you are free to leave and cease from participating in these discussions at any time if you continue to dislike the experience and the reception you receive.

Then you don't want to except forgiveness? You want to pay for your debts?

I would like to reply to your question. If I was god, in my personal preference, I would make the world fair and loving. I know this would deduct a bit of meaning from life, but it would be worth it. Also, if people did not believe I existed, I would show myself to them and speak to them, not make it exceedingly hard to find me and punish people for favouring the more likely possibility of me existing. I might even favour those people, as the people that believed in me for no reliable evidential reasons would be acting illogically. I think it would be mildly sadistic to set up the world likes this anyway, if I was omnipotent.

It is fair. You sin, you deserve bad things. He is not fair. He forgives a Christian's sin. Not yours.

Who says it's not true?

 

My book would have just as much chance as the bible in 2000 years

Okay, why don't you write a short paragraph about yourself as the world's creator. What can you do? What can't you do? Include a few more important facts about how you created the world.

I'll show you why it won't work.

"If you where God and gave life to the children of the world, then discovered some of those children where disobedient denying that you ever existed "

If I were, and I "discovered" anything then I would have to accept that I wasn't omniscient (or I would have seen it coming and done something about it) and so perhaps they had a point. I would be forced to accept that I was not the God I had represented myself as.

 

Njaohnt

Now you realise that it's absurd to believe Tres Juicy's book, do you understand why we don't believe yours?

 

If Tres Juicy wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

If I wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

If the council of Nicaea wrote a book and claimed it was the word of God, it would be absurd if anyone believed it.

 

But you do.

That's not the same. Wait for that paragraph.

What I propose is that, had God had made "food chains", I. would be totally pissed. Now!, if nature did it; it's perfectly alright with me.

Why?

1.yes what?

2.prove it...

1. God did, yes.

2. Well we eat life on earth, don't we?

The success of life on earth is the evolution of food chains, where multiple species co-evolve.

Fair enough.

What I propose is that, had God had made "food chains", I. would be totally pissed. Now!, if nature did it; it's perfectly alright with me.

Why?