njaohnt

What then would you call evidence?

If you could perform abiogenesis, then that would just as good as God healing an amputee, I guess.

 

I am well aware of what you're talking about - and my point stands. The Bible does not have a monopoly on religious creation stories. And if you're so willing to dismiss those as crazy theories, why should we take your religiously based theory any more seriously?

Then pretend you believe in one, and show me that it is better.

Ancestor worshipers might disagree...

And they have better (or equal) science, and logic than us in the modern world?

 

Minor correction. The Bible tells a story of creation. It's not the only one available. It's not even the only religious-without-a-scrap-of-scientific-evidence one available.

I am talking about the creation of our world, yes there are crazy theories out there!

 

What is the cause of a particular atom decaying?

Think before you post! Think of the answer before you ask the question!

If you can't figure it out, why is the universe here?

How so? Please elaborate how God is different than Santa Claus?

The "God theory" comes from the Bible, whereas the "Santa Claus" theory comes from parents. The Bibe doesn't say that God is false, but your parents do(or no longer deny their lie).

 

I we go by this logic, you must believe in Harry Potter, because the Harry Potter books never said Harry Potter does not exist.

 

~mooey

There's a big difference between Harry Potter, and the Bible.

1. The author of Harry Potter would even say that the books are false. The authors of the Bible are no longer availiable.

 

2. The Bible tells the story of creation, whereas Harry Potter doesn't fit with anything we see today.

 

 

Please, next time, before you post stuff like that, try to see how I would respond. This is a big waste of time which could have been avoided.

Why should our world be any different than all of the worlds we've seen being born?

What worlds have we seen being born? Why did you post this?

Citing Matt Slick is just adorable. He's one of the most dishonest people I've ever met and one of the most ignorant (despite being corrected on TAG incessantly, he still pushes it. At least he admitted once that he actually doesn't know anything about logic). This is another example of him being dishonest; he even has a footnote acknowledging that he is blatantly misrepresenting the position of his opponent so that he can claim they have equal assumptions. Furthermore, he doesn't address where the argument comes from (Bayes's Theorem) at all, nor does he even seem to know what "extraordinary evidence" means.

On the second link, he can't even tell the difference between evidence and claims! Citing Matt Slick gives you about as much credit as citing Ken Ham.

Those seemed correct to me.

Which creation story? The physically impossible one from the Bible? How about the modern one where God causes the entire universe despite there being no notion of a cause that could actually apply in that scenario?

Oh, and then there's the fact that the universe has always existed and will always exist.

Maybe you should read the post again. I think you're getting confused.

 

Yeah! Take that, atheists!!! Check and mate.

 

http://www.talkorigi...my/bigbang.html

 

http://www.astro.ucl...html#BBevidence

 

http://www.umich.edu...265/bigbang.htm

Those don't answer my question. I'm still asking my question. If those did answer it, show me. Perhaps I missed it.

 

Also:

 

SCIENCE!

I don't see how the answer my question. That's the same website where I got the lithium problem from.

If your god lives in the gaps, he is a very small god and he is ever shrinking.

There's the problem. The whole reason why we are still talking about this today. I think the opposite. I think that God is "getting bigger". I think the evidence is expanding, why do you think God is "getting smaller"?

That being said, wrong is relative and to think that the Big Bang is so wrong as to be able to be replaced with Creationism is insane.

It is not insane with miracles.

 

How about you read this: http://www.mechon-ma...p/pt/pt0220.htm and this: http://www.mechon-ma...p/pt/pt0505.htm

 

Did you ever consider you might want to learn the original language properly, read the original version properly and *then* see who's reading it wrong?

 

 

There are a LOT of contrary stories in the bible. The two biggest examples are:

• Two versions of the ten commandments in different orders and slightly different commandments. You can compare here: http://en.wikipedia....mbering_schemes
  Did God publish two versions, or did the writer just forget the order when he mentioned them again in Deutronomy? And if that's the case, what else did he mix up?
• Two versions of the creation story. You may think it's a translation problem (ironically) but it's not; the stories are different in the original hebrew/aramaic too, if you care to check. Who made the error, the first story teller, the second, or god?
  See the comparison here: http://skepticsannot...a/accounts.html or do some of your own research and find the two stories in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2

There are a lot more contradictions, but I believe we also have quite a number of threads about them, just use the search box to find them.

 

 

 

Are you even listening to yourself?

 

This is ridiculous. I didn't just go on a trip to Israel, I grew up there. I hiked the country for 25 years (it ain't that big), while learning about my heritage and the bible, in the original language it was written in (unlike you). I visited most, if not all, of the religious cities, archeological digs and so called "holy" places myself, and most of them more than once. The only places I did not go to are places that are not safe to go to, and even those I was closer to than you.

 

And yet you, who was never in Israel, never saw any of this first hand, cannot read the original texts of the bible, dismiss me so casually without even knowing what I've done or where I've been in.

 

That's why the picture below was posted, mate. You are doing EXACTLY that right now, all you're missing is holding your hands to your ears and saying "lalalala".

 

Good luck with that.

 

 

You continuously move the goal post, change your arguments and ignore ours. You might not have literally wrote that, but that's pretty much what you're saying right now.

 

 

 

 

Oh, for the love of FSM.

 

 

Skipping all the mumbo jumbo about searching happiness in the physical world, and the lecture that follows, I tried to go over that movie AGAIN for what is supposed to be the topic of the video - actual places in israel that "PROVE!" god.

 

Quoting the movie: "If the bible is what it claims to you, you and I and everyone on this earth has an obligation to read it, to understand it, and to try and respond appropriately to it." (6:24)

 

Well. Seeing as I read the bible in the original language (and you don't), I would claim I can understand it better. And I do respond to it. Of course you have a right to understand it differently, but seeing as you are reading it in a TRANSLATED version, you cannot possibly claim that I, the one who read the entire thing cover-to-cover in the original language you claim it was "given to us" in, understand it less than you.

 

If the bible is literal, it is literal in its original language. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

 

The movie clearly states that the goal is to get YOU to check the facts for yourself and see how the cynics and critics are wrong. So how about you do that, then, friend? Check things out for YOURSELF (7:16). Learn hebrew, study the supposed contradictions in the biblical text, go to Israel for yourself, learn the alternative historical facts and contradictions. We can talk then about different interpretations of facts.

 

Right now, we're arguing about how you think no one else knows anything at all. If in nothing else, you're CLEARLY wrong in that.

So your idiocrasy is the same as the people who lived thousands of years ago?

Also it never really said anything to the contrary (directly).

Now, if you want to ask me about where I've been, or specific actual places in Israel, what they feel like and what they look like and what I saw when I was there, feel free to. I probably have pictures, too, somewhere.

Sure. Tell me why it's not evidence.

 

Indeed. I think there's an even better example from the New Testament: who saw Jesus after he died, and in what order?

 

Write down the order of events as given by each of the four Gospels and see what you get.

 

Alternately: Give a timeline of the places Joseph and Mary lived. Include Bethlehem, Nazareth, etc. Do this for each gospel independently. Now compare.

I haven't seen any, but if you do, does it really matter? The Bible's purpose was so that people can stay out of Hell.

 

If you're lazy, you can just take this quiz a couple of times.

 

And I almost completely forgot about this nice chart.

Again, doesn't say anything like you are saying (directly).

 

It looks like perhaps you missed the answer you were given the first time you asked this. Let me help you in case you've forgotten.

 

http://www.sciencefo...post__p__689732

 

Here, too: http://www.newscient...ng-lithium.html

I'm still asking it. It never said anything about lithium-7 being possible at the amount which is. Did I miss it?

 

Yes, yes I can. There is no known definition of causality that works with a deity creating the universe. To illustrate the point, WHEN did God create the universe?

 

See, the universe is all of space and time. That means "before the universe" is contradictory to the point of meaninglessness. There is no time at which the universe did not exist. This is true by definition. If you don't believe me, tell me at what point in the universe does the universe not exist?

If God is real, He can make the universe start and stop, no matter what science says. I cannot tell you when the universe got created, nor when it did not exist. Only God knows that.

I have no plans on going to Michigan anytime soon. You seem to be a bit fuzzy on what the word "fact" means.

I think it's a fact. Whatever you think it is does not matter to me.

 

Yes if a true miracle ever occurred....

You're forgetting where we came from. The healer at my church has healed dozens of people, and John of God has healed hundreds. What makes you sure it was just a coincidence?

 

Is it just me, or is it really that the conversation goes one way, picks up a bunch of counter-claims, then njaohnt takes a breather for a couple of days, and when he comes back, it's as if half of our claims never happened.

njaohnt, I (and Capn, and others) made specific points. Can you relate to them? We're already 19 pages into the thread and we keep going in circles, it's getting really tedious.

If I haven't answer you, repeat yourself. Where?

 

How about first you tell me where all the lithium-7 went. Check and mate, atheists!!!1!!2!!on3!!

God created a third of the amount of lithium-7 than what the Big Bang says there should be.

There are no problems with nature creating the world except for people that just want to make up an answer because they don't have the patience for science.

Um, yes, there are lots of problems. God could of created the world. You cannot argue with that. So far, I'm still saying "Where did the lithium-7 go", so I can argue with the big bang.

 

If it really happened it would be evidence for something miraculous.

Would you believe in God?

And I'll say again not knowing the answer does not mean a god did it much less your god did it...

Anything you say happened with creation of the world is really just a place holder. There will never be an atheist creation theory that doesn't have problems… at least at this rate. There are no problems with God creating the world, except, if you say "the lack of evidence".

Why is "the bible never said god was false" have any meaning what so ever?

The Santa Clause theory proves itself wrong whereas God does not.

BTW, I was never told santa was real...

Neither was I, but just go along with "the vast majority of children" as if you were one of them.

I would say the two are pretty much the same evidence... nothing more than what some one else believes..

I'm sure that your parents have said (or have no longer denied) that Santa is false. The Bible never said that God is false.

More obtuse horse feathers?

If you think that that is obtuse, then maybe you should take a look at Matthew 5-7.

So your mothers back got better with no medical treatment what so ever? A humans back cannot heal? What are you saying?

If god wanted to be seen as real all he would have to do is heal an amputee but of course he does not do so...

No. Because the more a miracle happens, the less it seems like a miracle. If I said, for example, that I was an amputee, and that now I've been healed, what would you say? Think as if it really happened.

 

What does the possibility of the Big Bang Theory not being accurate have to do with the existence of the christian god?

If it is impossible that the earth formed by itself, then a god must have done it, and like I've said many times, no god has more evidence than God.

I will re-ask my question "Where did all the lithium-7 go?". This is one of the main reasons I believe the big bang is false. It said in the article that someone said that this is probably one of the things suggesting that the big bang is false. Yes, there might be other evidence, but like it said, there is too much excitement in the big bang for any problems to say that the big bang is false.

No in fact it makes your reply seem all the more obtuse...

God is supposed to be your god, not some other thread, so that people see you as someone worshiping that god as if you were for that god, not God, so that you may be accepted by others.

 

Like what?

Like my mother's back.

It's called spontaneous remission njaohnt, it happens in Christians and non Christians, believers and non believers, the belief system of a person has nothing to do with it.

 

http://en.wikipedia....neous_remission

I'm not sure if I understood that page, but those healers have healed much more than tumors.

 

So this forum is just a place for you to espouse your belief in god?

Ummm... yeah the title is "Christian Evidence", is it not?

Where do this links say there is a devil...

It doesn't.

Again how does the fact that we don't know everything support the idea of god? We didn't know what caused volcanoes at one time but it didn't prove there was a god.

It's not the best of evidence, but it's still evidence.

I would take as evidence anything that supports the idea of god, so far all you have done is show things we don't yet know about. That isn't evidence of god. It would be easy to show that god is real, supposedly he did many things in the old testament that would have been proof if they had been documented, stopping the rotation of the earth for a few hours like he did in the bible would be proof.

Stopping the earth for rotating is better than a miracle? I'll see if I can get Him to do that, but stopping the earth from rotating might not be a good idea... anything else?

 

I think you are wasting your time as well as ours here...

Yeah, this thread is getting more and more pointless. I just have a few more things to say, and then perhaps it should get locked.

This article is the evidence of Devil?

lol

Oh! Sorry I didn't explain! I'm pretty sure that those were works of the Devil.

The bible is nothing but a collection of hearsay written by storytellers through the ages. It is not evidence of anything but the existence of storytellers. Why don't you try presenting some of that other "way more" evidence you think you have? We're waiting...

Are your parents telling you that the Santa is real more evidence than the Bible saying that God is real?

The big bang and abiogenesis has nothing to do with each other...

Really...

You need to clarify this, what you wrote makes no sense.

I'm not sure of what you want me to say.

Then provide the evidence...

the number of people who believe in something ha nothing to do with the reality of it.

I'm not going to reply to this. You know what I will say. We've been here before ... a lot.

I once hesitated to go through a green light and in that moment a huge truck roared through the intwersection, if i hadn't hesitated i would be dead right now.

There's one! Unfortunately the Christians have more. God does things for the better.

Evidence

Some of these things make the big bang impossible. This has turned me away from the big bang.

http://www.newscient.../13-more-things

Where did all the lithium-7 go, and what about the lithium-6?

Here's evidence of the Devil.

http://www.newscient...ebo-effect.html

 

 

Perhaps I should just stop wasting my time here. I believe in God, and you don't take anything as evidence. What would you take as evidence?

 

The concept of the devil was made up by christians, the old testament does not reference such a being. If you think it does feel free to show the passages that say other wise. The videos were quite clear that the devil is not seen in the old testament.

By making people believe that he doesn't exist, he makes people believe that the Bible is false, leading to them not believing in God, leading them to Hell. The Devil has used the fact that if the Israelites knew him before, something bad would happen (this is what I assume. It's better than atheist believing in abiogenesis.) ... I don't know what. Perhaps I will find out.

God is never a "best explanation." It's a cop-out... a place holder of the gap until rational and reasonable people provide a valid answer.

Same thing as the big bang. What the difference? The big bang cannot be true unless abiogenesis is real (or something like that). That makes it another place holder.

Jaden - I know this is very difficult to accept, but it almost certainly was just coincidence.

What are you talking about? What makes it almost certain?

 

Answer the question. You indicated that a large enough quantity of believers makes something true. Now, quit prevaricating and support your assertion.

Here's the evidence of Santa Clause verses the Christian evidence:

There are gifts on Christmas morning --vs-- The earth is here

That has nothing to do with the fact that Santa did that. Santa can't go through the chimney(or can he?)

Parents have told people that --vs-- the Bible tells us that

Our parents are liars.

Your cookies are gone on Christmas morning --vs-- Miracles happen

Your parents like cookies. Why don't they eat them.

Now which one of those seems like more evidence?

BTW, there is ZERO evidence for deities!

Yes there is. Stop saying this!

 

 

 

 

The vast majority of the world's children believe in Santa Clause. Do you think that is evidence that Santa Clause is real?

Yes.

 

Yes, many times....

Examples?

While this is redundant feel free to provide some of that "way more" evidence...

Miracles are beyond what science can provide for us (usually). Presents can get under a tree easily without Santa.

njaohnt, you do realize that the devil or Satan is a concept completely made up by Christians around 3 to 4 hundred CE don't you?

 

I do believe that the Devil is real. There is no evidence against him in that video.

The Devil is evil, but he is also pretty smart. By making people believe that he doesn't exist, he makes people believe that the Bible is false, leading to them not believing in God, leading them to Hell. The Devil has used the fact that if the Israelites knew him before, something bad would happen (this is what I assume. It's better than atheist believing in abiogenesis.) ... I don't know what. Perhaps I will find out. There has to be a reason.

The thing is that God is so amazing that there has to be a reason for everything (this is what the atheists assume with their theories["there has to be a reason for everything"]).

Coincidences happen to everyone Njaohnt, sinners, saints, pagans, buddhists, serial killers, muslims, jews, atheists, pantheists, mono theists, witches, warlocks, I mean everyone, belief does not enter into it...

 

A miracle is something that cannot have happened via natural means, it does not mean something that happens that was unlikely.

 

Saying that coincidences do not happen to atheists is either stupid or a lie....

I am talking about odd coinsidences, like the one that Jaden talked about. Has anything like that happened to you?

 

The vast majority of the world's children believe in Santa Clause. Do you think that is evidence that Santa Clause is real?

God has way more evidence than Santa Clause.

You indicated that the translation you use contains no such passage when in fact other earlier translations do indeed contain the passage that wearing clothes made of different types of thread is an abomination even though both 'translations" agree that homosexuality is an abomination the same as wearing clothing made of different types of threads.

 

njaohnt do you not even read your bible?

You haven't understood me at all. I was talking about the fact that it says "I am the LORD". Now do you get what I'm saying?

 

Your conclusion.

Really? I think it does.

What if they were simply relating myths they had been told?

Okay, now you're going into stuff I don't know enough about. Were there scrolls with in Isael that were against God? Where were the scrolls of the other religions.

They have no evidence... just like yours... why would I want to believe in anything that has no evidence?

Oh wow. There's tons of evidence. You haven't explained anything with the two healers. Why are they not evidence?

Yeah, it doesn't say the same thing the original does... homosexuality seems to be special for some reason, they always seem to translate that one correctly...

I'm confused. What oringinal?

Does not follow.

What doesn't follow?

This is not evidence of anything but coincidence.

Well, from the evidence I have, it looks like this is a miracle. I think on this image…

…I should black out "Religion" and put and atheism because of this post.

 

Alright, here's my reasoning for this being a miracle.

What evidence do we have?

1. We know that there are more atheists on Science Forums than Christians.

2. We know that if this isn't a coinsidence, it is a miracle.

3. We know that the Christians on Science Forums have posted more "coinsidences" than atheists.

4. We know that a coinsidence has an equal chance of happening to anyone, Christian or non-Christain.

 

Gathering this we see that #3 violates #4 unless either

• it was a miracle instead of a coinsidence

--or--

• the atheists here are not displaying their coinsidences Show me that this is the answer, atheists, show me your coinsidences that that worked out for the better!

Christianity is NOT the best thing to believe.

That's only true if the people who wrote the Bible were lying.

 

All those "other" religions are just as good to believe in because they have precisely the same evidence yours does... Atheism is not a religion...

Show me evidence of them, and once again, that was not the purpose of that post! If you think they have good evidence, maybe you should believe in them!

Wearing cloth made of more than one type of thread is the same as being homosexual.... both are an abomination in the eyes of the Lord...

Read the NIV translation. Notice anything?