iNow

We have no quarrel or disagreement on the impact of the shutdown. Where we differ is in the acceptance of your conclusion that the risk of opening up today will result in fewer direct deaths than these indirect ones you cite. Indeed. I thought we were talking about the present, though?

More people will die, people that otherwise could've had a vaccine or a hospital bed and ventilator in a medical facility that would be overwhelmed if we do today what you are suggesting.

Except, no. It's not. It's based on actual data from actual humans responding to actual questions. At best, you will unlock a FRACTION of the previous economic activity by lifting the orders. https://www.kff.org/global-health-policy/issue-brief/kff-health-tracking-poll-late-april-2020/ You can think whatever you want. It's both a false choice and also unsupported by the data

I wasn't presenting it as a solution. I was presenting it as a counter argument to your claim that I have no way of knowing the economic slowdown will be temporary. It does no such thing. Please stop reading things that I'm not typing. Focus on the words I say, not the words I don't say. This isn't jazz (h/t swansont) Opening too soon without proper testing and without any vaccine changes none of those things... and, in fact, quite likely makes them worse.

They appear very much to be only at the margins. Most of the experts rightly discuss phased approaches, not indefinite ones. Do you think the ONLY reason people are staying home is because the government said so? Governors lifting stay at home orders won't magically restart the economy. People still support social distancing and will not be patronizing businesses the way they used to. It's not an on/off switch on this thing. It's a dimmer. Lifting the orders will only bring back a fraction of the business until a vaccine and quick scale-able testing are in place, especially since opening too soon will result in a more extensive economic shutdown later when Phase 2 of this illness hits in conjunction with the fall flu. Kindly please elaborate. I said this economic impact will be temporary. I did not say how many days/months/years temporary would be. How is that nonsense?

On a long enough time scale, everything is temporary

We can recover from a temporary economic slowdown. We cannot recover from death. X-posted with MigL

Your personal incredulity is irrelevant. There are valid and enforceable limitations on both free speech and protest. That was my only point.

And there too (much like yelling fire in a crowded theater) exist valid limitations: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/protesters-rights/

It’s known as Police Powers, and it comes directly from the 10th amendment to the Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_power_(United_States_constitutional_law)

Well, yeah. Drilling in the arctic is the most intelligent move right now, clearly /sarcasm

Perhaps you should take it up with former Chief Supreme Court Justice of the United States, Oliver Wendall Holmes, to whom that exact quote is often attributed: “The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." Its also been similarly stated by legal experts like John Stuart Mill, and even Abraham Lincoln. Maybe it’s you who’s the odd man out on this one? Freedom brings with it certain responsibilities, especially when others around us are equally free.

Perhaps, but it’s also a valid claim. These protests were organized by a tiny handful of special interest organizations. Sure, the people attending have valid concerns and real problems, and I’m sure they’d rather life get back to normal (like all of us). They are cognizant of government overreach and rightly wish to protect personal liberties. Acknowledging these things, however, should not prevent us from acknowledging in parallel that many/most of these fringe protests are being centrally coordinated and have purposes entirely unrelated to the stated protest goals. You’ll notice these Flu Klux Klan protests are all white and against democratic governors, rather similar to the Black Lives Matter protests which were later shown to be astroturfed and largely driven by Russian intelligence. Their message then was that All Lives Matter, but I guess that is only true until you’re trying to protect citizens from global pandemics. Then, lives magically become expendable and the message switches to “screw you grandma, I need Fuddruckers to re-open so I can get me a hamburger and then go bowling STAT!.”

Sounds about right

Fair enough

Many have, in fact. GOP strategists, senators, representatives, governors, and media outlets have been collectively telling Trump that his press briefings are doing more harm than good and you’ll notice they’ve gone from 2 hours per day down to 15-20 minutes, often with Trump just abruptly walking out of the briefing room.

“I don't care what the newspapers say about me as long as they spell my name right.” ― P. T. Barnum

Right. I’m not convinced stupidity is an adequate explanation for what we are experiencing. He’s a master at controlling media narratives. It’s too simplistic to assume this past four years has been nothing more than a string of mistakes from a village idiot. There’s a method to the madness...

Meanwhile, I continue wondering: What’s he trying to distract us from? What was he doing that required a comment so crazy to hide from view? We’ve spent 2 days talking about Lysol and a lot can happen behind the scenes during 2 days. I continue wondering what it was.

And now that their legal CYA statement is in place, Darwin will sort the rest out

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/22/21231763/dr-rick-bright-fired-hhs-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-vaccine-trump

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-updates-us-death-toll-tops-40000-stay/story?id=70237290&cid=social_twitter_abcn And displacement of blame and scapegoating of the “other” shifts into a higher gear. Dear Mr President: The virus is already here and doesn’t care a whit about your xenophobia and nationalism.

Hygiene. Proximity. The animals aren’t stacked five high nor are they being ingested. There are other reasons, too.

If he gets any closer, he’ll need an NDA or at least to send me a hush money payment (or both!)