Mike Smith Cosmos

Well so far , I have realised that current science techniques only span several hundred years from the reneasance until today . Prior to that , philosophy , reason , discussion , religion and writing carried more weight, in the area we are talking about. I have however , thought of a very weighty argument with supportive evidence for the two points l mentioned. Namely :- 1) the activity of a God and 2) displaying Heirachy issues. It spans approximately 6000 years and deals very much with the Heirachy of man and God . Because it spans this period it is bound to cover the periods of Religion , Philosophy , and Science and Writing ------------- Mike ------------- it begins in that period of Earths Development when animals roamed , but there was no Humans on Earth , as we know them . How this information got to earth , I am not too sure , but it was recorded , and handed down the centuries to today and reads and God said " Let US make man in OUR image . " this would infer very deliberately that there were MANY others around , way up somewhere for God to say :- US ....... AND ........OUR . THIS was descidedly a (GOD ....HIERACHY .. Application .) number 1 Also some inter activity happened thousands of years later when immense activity and presence was experienced on earth when all sorts of visitations were experienced . From the HEIRACHY above. About year zero AD or CE.. This was ( GOD ....HIERACHY .. APPLICATION ) number 2 SINCE then we have had a couple of millenium pass with quite a lot of scientific development , with inventions of all sorts , where we appear to have reached a stage where we are about to blow each other to pieces. So an Intervention might be fitting for another .. (GOD ....HIERACHY ... APPLICATION ) number 3 This is more history than science , though science has covered , quite a bit of this timescale . It also needs to be remembered that during all this time , it was quite normal to believe in the EXISTANCE of God/s even as Wise men , Philosophers, even many Scientists , though today there does seem to be a proponderance of scientists who profess to be atheist . So there is quite a bit of GOD and HIERARCHY, Intermingled with the advent of science in the last few hundred years , out of 6000 years of human development. Although the basis of science was being laid down many years before. Mike

Martillo, Nice to hear you arguing your corner . I have my own problem in this direction . It seems many scientists are ( heisted by their own petard) Quote https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoist_with_his_own_petard Because of the requirement for much of science to have completely rigorous logic and demonstrable mathematical proof , any ' God ' type reasoning , " falls on completely deaf ears " . However there are a growing number of scientists who are looking " outside the box " as more things are becoming non answerable , by centre stage science . Mike

EVIDENCE I suppose the onus is on me to come up with some evidence of the activity of a God , which is of a technical nature , that is unable to be explained by other means! ( non Godlike means ) ! . And in view of the theme of this thread , this needs to be of a living thing , which displays HIERACHY attributes . Give me me a moment to dredge up such an artifact mike

You were getting me fretting there for a minute. However all sounds good , being back where everybody thinks things should be . There is probably a moral in this story somewhere, in view of the growing USA / North Korea arms race to war ! Mike

I was trying to give the story of the Universe , which must have both a scientific content as well as a ' theological ' content a bit of an ' airing ' from both sides. I am sure many of the great thinkers and scientists up through history have not ALL dismissed GOD out of their conscious considerations . As nearly 50 % of the world population do actually believe in a GOD , according to statistics on these matters , including some of the great names like, Plato, Aristotle, Michael Angelo, Galileo, Isaac Newton , even ( I believe to some extent ) 'Albert Einstein ', with his comment ' God does not play dice ' . And if spoken to privately some of today's great thinkers ! All I have done is to try and see ' where ' in the scientific story could God be introduced as a realistic entity . I am not sure all those scientists I have mentioned and hinted at in the previous paragraph , would agreed to being catagorised in the way you describe above . However , I do appreciate the currently ' mooted ' picture of science is one of strict ridigity, and non predictability is not a comfortable aspect . But more and more areas of the scientific story is hitting difficulties with some areas of the picture of behaviour of the universe , not behaving in a conventionally understood way ! More as time goes on ! "WHAT HAPPENED AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF TIME " being one of them ! What happens at the very very small ! What happens with some quantum phenomenon ! What IS and happens with Time ! And the list is getting larger as we go on ! So we either go on categorising more and more thinkers as ' cranks' or we 'bite the bullet' , and say reluctantly we need to broaden our view of the universe to include things we have previously banished from the science arena. This approach of categorising some thinkers as ' cranks ' . We need to 'ease up on' , So as to address some of these areas , like the very beginning , the very small , the very early , the very distant , the very quantum , etc etc Mike

I am not sure I know what an apistevist is , however , evidence ....! Well that is interesting , because nobody else is standing up and saying " well I did it " ! The inflationary expansion from One Higgs particle ... The New scientist has this to say QUOTE " They say it started with a bang , but in truth it misfired. The Universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed, trillions upon trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a TIC TACK . IN A MERE FRACTION OF A SECOND, THE UNIVERSE EXPANDED BY AS MANY ORDERS AS MAGNETUDE , AS IT WOULD IN THE FOLLOWING 13.8 billion years. Believe it or not this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the Universe looks today . But there's something missing : what did the inflating ? UNQUOTE *** Good SIGNAL for a GOD TO ENTRE .... ( with a big bag of energy and inertia ) . " work with a speck of energy trillions upon trillions SMALLER THAN AN ATOM " , I would have a go with something that small ? ( maybe if I could find it ? And make it duplicate a few times , ( remember the multiply X 2 a few times , fold a large sheet of paper 45 times and it will reach the moon ) see ps below MIKE *** page 31 NEW SCIENTIST 10 June 2017 ps. I do appreciate , it would take a bit of getting that initial Higgs particle just right for duplicating automatically . However you have had all of the previous eternity to think about it at length , before pressing the " go " button.

Here is a picture I painted this afternoon in an Art Class . The proposed subject was to paint , " THEN THERE WAS LIGHT " in whatever form we wished . Some people did ' Sun rise , some did surreal sources of light , I did THE HIGGS BANG , as per recent article in the New Scientist 10th June 2017 , starting page 30 . Reading what is said and using this setting for 'the possible entry point of a ' God ' , like where would be the useful place to enter the scene , and where does any testimonial indicate it had to be by " such and such a time " . Clearly a single Higgs particle , could have been there all the time , or created somehow . The secret of the Universe and life , seems to incorporate DUPLICATION , followed by CONTINUING DUPLICATION . That is a bright Idea if you want to make a Univese. ( as you can start with something small , modest , yet well designed such that it can duplicate ( over and over ) and not long before you end up with something the size of a Universe. Similarly with life when that enters the scene . So I think the good entry point of a God would be either before or just after the entry of the first HIGGS PARTICLE. It could not be much later than after the inflation that introduced the marble sized Higgs particle . As the growth of the Universe started at 13.72 Billion years ago , https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=age+of+universe+in+years&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari and not long into the cosmic expansion , ( 300,000 years along ,( from that start at 13.7 billion years ago ) the recombination event ( nucleus and electrons combine , and LIGHT ( Photons ) escape into the Universe . That was ( "and God said LET THERE BE LIGHT " ) . This is recorded in the Bible as a very early happening , and can be found on the first page of all these books all over the world . So if this was to be attributed to God there was a fairly brief period to make an entry . ( From first Higgs particle to first light ) . Here is my painting, FIRST , inflation bunch of HIGGS particles on LEFT HAND SIDE of the painting . Up to marble size . SECOND the RECOMBINATION ( protons and electrons ) with release of PHOTONS ( LET THERE BE LIGHT . ) On the RIGHT HAND SIDE . Materials first , life to follow . mike

You could say that. Its not the way I would have put it .But there is a ring of truth in what you say. I am reasonably convinced there is a pattern of behaviour and response BETWEEN THE HIERARCHIES. I can clearly see the sort of malevolent behaviour and the beneficial behaviour, going on between Human Hierarchy and simple animal like fish . I /we can look for evidence ) without pre-supppsed conclusions ( care to not be closed minds).for evidence of both ., malevolent and benifocial support from the potential hierarchy up from human . I believe there is sufficient evidence for both beneficial and districtive interference. Mike

Hierachy - Cooperation that is really SEMANTICS surely ... https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=semantics+synonym&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari I suppose I am trying to get a feel of where we are in the 'great scheme of things ? ' Are we at the top of the pile , or just one level in a HIERACHY ? I would like to feel there was the security of knowing , somehow the universe , as a whole , was in more capable hands than just us ' trashing ' humans ! Mike

Well that is quite interesting , I thought I was crazy enough , talking about the relationship I think I have with my fish . But with a spider , that's even more ... ... Progressive ... You will have to keep me informed how it progresses! . May at be your feeding it regularly , as you say , is what is forging the relationship . I think that is what is happening with my fish ( cupboard love ) . They position themselves in a forward facing line , when I appear . Perhaps your spider will bring a mate along sometime ? Who or what is feeding me ? And what am I being fed? Mike

Maybe my fish died because there was a malevolent attack on this fish by an agressive bird or some other preditor at night . The wound becoming infected, festering , and ultimately killing the gold fish . SIMILARLY :- If there is life beyond our region , in the HIERACHY .. UP .. from us ? Maybe the Benign, ones might just be helping us slightly, and some more Predatory life Forms could be stirring things up and fuelling some of the troubles currently afoot on earth. This could be how some of my fish are having a good time at my behest , whereas one of the prize goldfish has possibly been attacked by some predator, ending up with ( a now dead ) goldfish ? Maybe predation , has a role to play , but in some circumstances , "goes over the top ? " Mike

I am getting a real feel for this ' down HIERACHY ' responsibility, and concern . For whatever reason , I have taken responsibility for these living things , as distinct from material objects ( like say a precious stone ) . Which I do not have the same sort of feeling for , even though stones often seem precious , not the same feeling , as for the fish . I think this would be true for all animals I have had in my care. I have kept sheep and goats and few livestock ( beasts ) before, earlier in my life for a few years. As distinct from all matter , animals engender much more care and feelings. This would suggest that the same would be true , coming from any superior life forms in the strata of HIERACHY , above us . No doubt the , care , fondness , and concern for our wellbeing , will be just as , if not more , in depth towards us human beings , than I give to my fish . I think the fish will bearly be ware of this concern on our part. This is indeed reflected in how we as human creatures , barely take as a reality that there is indeed ' ANY ' concern for us from the next up in the ' up ' HIERACHY ' above us ! Mike

Tonight , my main goldfish has died. I am heart struck. Crushed. I cried as I buried it on its own place in the garden . Now I feel in the raw something one rung down on the Hierachy, one of my. Cared for animals has GONE ! so how is it like for whoever is in charge of the Hierarchy above when ONE PERSON DIES how much more so when 1000 people die. The feeling invoked in the HIERARCHY above must be ........ almost unbearable . We must have an END . Mike

I do apologise , I honestly thought that I had made substantial effort to provide , under both ( you and Moontanman's previous requests ) , to answer your questions about HIERACHY , as put up by myself . I obviously was not hitting the right button ! Perhaps we are coming from different directions . i personally have never had any problems , believing THAT THERE ARE HIGHER BEINGS than us living somewhere in our Universe. What I have always wanted to know , was how did the FIRST ...BEING and the MATTER and FIELDS of the universe come about . Perhaps , I have concentrated on that ONE PHENOMENON of the original issue of " FROM NOTHING ...HOW " I have laboured that point , in order to set the scene for , what was to come , namely . How the HEIRACHY works from there. I think we can accept for the moment that MATTER came into the Universes, by the way I said . It could Not , 'Not come into EXISTANCE ' if this universe has as its remit what I previously stated . ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING WILL COME INTO EXISTANCE , IF THERE IS NOT A REASON FOR IT NOT TO. How a living HEIRACHY stems from this can only be in the way it did . Namely ranked Superior being first , ( God , for want of a better word ) thinking , being , caring , relating , dominion over matter to a science limited extent . ( as explained previously ) . Dominion over other living beings in the wider universe role , Dominion over humans on earth, At this juncture humans have Dominion over the animals on earth . Including microscopic life . Now if you want citations on all of these levels of the HEIRACHY or whatever is available . I can do my best but this has been the lot of Astronimers , Religious men , Zoologists , Biologists and the like . ( a life's work no doubt) . But it was my endeavour to pick out a model within the ( goldfish to human , model ,) that I have as evidence . And relate it to the God -Human interface and see if there is a good correlation. Which I believe there is . Hope that makes it clearer? For the moment . Mike Ps I do not think it appropriate to threaten chastisement , when I am making genuine effort to support a very interesting subject . NAMELY HOW DID WE ALL GET HERE TO BEHAVE THE WAY WE DO . This is a LOUNGE forum after all said and done . Citations about God are many but controversial . I was trying to reason from a scientific / philosophical standpoint , which is difficult to say the least . However I have made an attempt . When it comes to parralel reasoning from species to species up and down the HIERARCHY that may put us on an interesting footing ! The quotations from the new scientists should count toward 'citing ' other individuals in the field , even though some of the articles are from cutting edge ideas. One has to start somewhere when the subject is as speculative and controversial as this subject is !

I am personally not spinning any wheels ! I have spent a lot of years , thinking , and working out . How is it possible for the whole , vast , universe , come into EXISTANCE . I really don't know how you can ignor , the subject of where/ how did the start of the Universe happen , and what started it . That is like a young child looking at its parents and knowing they , as a child , had a lot to do with these two adults, but how, when , where , which , what . Later , in life they understand . It SERIOUSLY is NOW . We are grown up as a family of the Universe. We need to know where we and the whole Universe came from . Even if we do not get it right , strait away , we need to seek it out , think it through, try to understand , otherwise it is just " burying our head in the sand ! " It helps doing the investigation , I am currently doing , coupled with some really deep thinking . If life breaks down easily into ( A ). ORIGINATORS ( B ). HUMANS ( C ). ANIMALS ( D ). MICROBES . Then it is clear my immediate research , thinking , proposals , and inference , Then my attention must look to the two next to me in the HIERACHY 1. Issue 1. These are animals ( fish ) - to man , and man to fish . 2. Issue 2. These are originators ( gods if you like ) - to man , and man to originators (gods) . so my first research is (FIRSTLY issue 3.) Is it possible for there to be originators,) and as we are science inclined (SECONDLY . Issue 4.) " How did the ORIGINATORS start the universe off. . the (SECONDLY ) is strait forward as we can do some fancy work with the large hadron collider. You could see how that be magnified and equipped with a duplicator upon duplicator .... The ( FIRSTLY ) is a bit more tricky but my " something WILL HAPPEN if there is NO REASON for it not to happen . Can cope with that issue , with a lot of lateral thinking . 1) above . The experience fish to man and man to fish , releases a whole host of results suitable for use with ( 2) .... 2) above. This is really interesting as we have countless , personal experiences of , seeking , relationships , lifetime experiences , world history, artefacts , etc these last two sections are the main thrust of this thread , namely we can use the experience with fish to give us insight HOW to research the beneficial results we can get from this investigations . I am doing my personal investigations and thinking , on all four of the above described ( issues 1,2,3,4 ) I am very heartened by what I have found out , and think of very little else . ( not too much wheel spin ) . I have evidence or strongly reasoned (inferred ) argument for all Issues ( issues 1,2,3,4. ) mentioned above . Mike

Yes, I think I would agree with you on that point. However that does not need to relate to size ! Yes, m complex , more detailed , but not necessarily in the case of size or dimensions . We as humans often build big buildings or communication systems , far bigger physically , or in storage capacity, as well as Physically or with information . It has to be possible or the universe would not be here or be what is like . I have thought long and hard about this point . And where I got round to is ...... There would have to exist , before the advent of any God , stuff or anything . There would need to be some possibility , unrestrained rules , laws which would allow for a God coming into existence . The all encompassing law that would need to BE , IS OR WAS " ANYTHING OR EVERYTHING CAN OCCUR , IF THERE IS NOT A REASON FOR IT NOT TO OCCUR " If this rule is accepted as read ! Then something can come into existence , into , NOTHINGNESS . As GOD . Because there is NOTHING TO PREVENT IT HAPPENING . From then on , whatever is made , OR COMES INTO EXISTANCE may have aspects or effects or rules of a sort of science that PREVENTS , OR RESTRICTS or ASSISTS certain things from happening IN THE WAY WE NOW UNDERSTAND PARTLY AS THE SCIENCES . But lurking about still is the opening rule . Provided there is nothing to prevent things happening , and there is an initiative to happen , ( say by an initiator God ) then things will happen , because it is the first law . As the universe builds up it gets more and more restricted by laws . Having started with no law but ONE ( anything can happen , if there is no reason for it not to happen ) . You could see how this could unwind from a zero beginning with one law . To where we are today with many , many laws growing out of the start up . Mike

Yes. I have probably not made my use of the term HIERACHY clear enough. I have really been considering MANKIND within a Universal Hierachical context from Top to bottom . Namely : from NOTHING ....to GODS ........ to MATERIAL UNIVERSE ........to MANKIND ............................to ANIMALS .......................to LOWER LIFE FORMS ...... In this thread concentrating on from GODS/ Higher Intelegence beyond mankind , to Mankind, to Animals in the form of Fish , and briefly Bugs on the bottom of a pool . My point being :- ---------------------- ------------------------- --------------- this general living HIERACHY that we find ourselves in from GODS. . to MANKIND to FISH ........and briefly to bugs. ---------------------- ----------------------- ------------------ In concentrating on this section of the HIERACHY ! Across the living , thinking, behaving , aspect , I thought by examining various aspects of the 'FISH - HUMAN relationship within this PARTICULAR chain , I might be able to see how a relationship could follow a similar pattern , going from HUMANS up the chain . Clearly there appears a more thorough a relationship developed DOWN the CHAIN . Is this reflected in the upward chain Mike

What I beautiful crystal ! See comments in in following post . ( I thought the posts would combine . ) But they did not combine . So see comments in next post ! mike

I think there is a need to go right back to the beginning . We had an earlier need in this thread to establish the latest thinking on the very early Universe. The quotes from the latest think tank on this matter . Spoke of an immediate inflationary expansion ( of everything in Higgs Boson size granuals ) to the size of a marble .( in zero time ) . I have thought about this quite hard. If we take to owning the " Anything can happen if there is no reason for it not to happen " that I have proposed , is the way the universe started. Or as the two scientists ( .such is the case of The Quantum Universe: Everything That Can Happen Does Happen* by ..physicist Brian Cox and University of Manchester professor Jeff Forshaw — a remarkable and absorbing journey into the fundamental fabric of nature, exploring how quantum theory provides a framework for explaining everything .. ." If it can happen it will happen " then that early marble sized bundle of Higgs Bosons ( which later went on to expand to the size of the current Universe. Then we have the convenient entry point for an Intelligence. If there was absolutely nothing beforehand , nothing to stop things happening , then 'Anything 'and 'Everything ' ' Goes' . Although this happened before the need for time , which came later in phase two , ( when the Universe expanded for 13.82 Billion years ) to its present state. The ' Everything Goes' could have included intelligence, in some form or another . When the universe expanded over the following 13.82 billion years , this intelligence would be spread out IN or ACROSS the whole universe , where it remains to this day as a major part of this upper HIERACHY. I genuinely think ( in view of the magnitude and complexity of the Universe , and it's requirements for oversight ) . That any spread out intelegence will be sufficiently , vastly more complex , and voluminous than mankind . It could well be , however , I could be wrong , that there are beings not dissimilar to us humans but stand to be corrected ! Mike Ps . Not sure about this " ordered structure of the universe ." And showing me something . Sure !

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Surely this whole description of the likely nature of the universe is a testimony of clever construction and thus design originating from somewhere ? All I am saying is , this could not just pop out of nowhere, without any intelligence ? We as humans can hardly get our head around it, let alone , design it from scratch and then make it happen . So surely that makes us as humans a step below or as I have had a way to say a HIERACHY BELOW A higher intelligence , what is wrong with that . Surely that is more credible , than saying " it all sprung out of nowhere. I appreciate one could say " well where does / did this other intelligence come from ? But that is a different issue / question , which I am prepared to address , by all means . But as regards the immediate question " can there be a higher intelligence to human kind . I SAY YES . possibly by the method described in the Current New Scientist ? Because if if that lot does not require a lot of intelligence " "I am a monkey's Uncle " if that is not a metaphor to far ? Mike

Well simply , mankind appears to be the top of the tree ( as regards intelligence) on Earth . So my question , and longing , is that there is some intelligence somewhere beyond what I see there is ,on earth . I hope so ! I am surmising that if we can see the gap there is between humans and fish , then it is to be hoped there is at least as much a gain in intelligence between , us as humans , and the next grade upwards ? If there is not . Then well we are in deep trouble , as we do not possess the skills or ' where-with-all ' to sort our future, do we ? Anymore than my fish in the pool, as the pool is too small ! And they do not possess the 'where- with- all ' to build a bigger , better , pool . They need me to sort it ? Surely ? The Big Bang , I have commented about new theories in the New Scientist above . ( to Area 54 ) As regards God . Seems fairly logical to me, and there appears to be quite a lot of historic reference to it , over mankinds recent history , in most nations , past and current . That's what a lot of the recent fighting has been about . Not that I agree , by no means , with all the fighting , but much has been over historic sites. Our history seems to have been ' peppered ' with this issue ! Mike

I am trying to understand what is going on ! I have no desire to " troll" , as you refer to it. ( not totally certain what trolling means ? ) If you were sitting across the table from me , with a cup of coffee each , I would ask you to explain to me what you think is going on . I am currently trying to get my head around what researchers Nima Arkanani-Hamed and his team in the Institute of Advanced Studies in New Jersey is saying. They appear to have come up with a " the Amplituhedron" . Which may be getting at the root of Reality . Doing the same job as Feynman diagrams. Their work is being discussed in this weeks New Scientist where ' they think that this helps understand how gravity works at the smallest scales' " Space -Time and Quantum Mechanics , emerge as one . " July 29 2017 New Scientist ( Page 28-31 ) by Anil - Ananthaswamy Consultant to New Scientist. Suely , if things like this are going on at the smallest scales , then the researchers are getting near to understanding the issues I am raising ? Is that not so ? New Scientist representation of the Amplituhedron. ( the proposed very core of space time , at the smallest scales) on work done by Ruth Britto, Freddy Cachazo, Bo Feng and Edward Witten . Twistors by Roger Penrose, Nima Arkani-Hamed and his team at the Institute of advanced studies New Jersey giving birth to a multi-dimensional concatenation of polyhedrons : . The ...... AMPLITUHEDRON ... If this is what makes up or made the universe at the smallest scales in my next HIERACHY up , then so be it . "One merged space time and quantum mechanics as one and the same aspect of the underlying positive Geometry." Quote Arkani-Hamed. mike

Yes , but those animals are probably , or likely , to ALL be in the same level of HIERACHY. I have picked fish ( gold fish ) , because I have them near to hand to conduct simple experiments and observations with . So in my case at this stage the list is 1. True I could pad this out in the future should it deem necessary , with many fish and other animals to observe . Which it would be necessary if there is a glimmer of a positive observation . The second HIERACHY, is that of Humans , of which I am an easy and ,to hand sample to Observe , and make conclusions on . There are some millions of others in this sample area, if necessary. The God ( Particle ) , Higgs Boson , Photons, and Dark energy might be more difficult . Although there is much /many observation in astronomy . The evidence for a living GOD , among the heavens is an interesting concept . It might make an interesting project to ' Prove ' that concept , but I think there is quite a lot of evidence for reason and conclusions . This comes out of history artefacts , and human testimony . Not to mention , that many gaps remain unanswered in the Universe at large -- such as " what fueled the Big Bang in the first place . Currently a vacant spot in Universe history . Also the practically of communications between potential life throughout the Universe . If the speed of light is a limit , we will never communicate , however if there is some form of universe wide intelligence , like a universe wide INTERNET HYPER SYSTEM . We can look forward to universe wide communication . Well , I take your point . But I have deliberately chosen humans as the subject of the middle HIERACHY , as that is my , and I would have thought everybody else's interest . It is, at this stage of no interest to me , how God relates/ communicates with animals . I am interested in how we relate to animals , which is why I chose the ' gold fish ' , as they are to hand . What I am interested in is " my interaction with fish , ( cross HIERACHY) , in order to gain insight into cross HIERACHY between God and Human , in the context of this subject of this thread . Eg. Concern for wellbeing, space available , number, food , behaviour , etc etc Even George Smoot said when he first saw his project recoding the FIRST image of the cosmic background radiation . " I FELT I was looking into the FACE of GOD " Ref George Smoot :-. COBE https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Smoot COSMIC BACKGROUND RADIATION FIRST SIGHT . mike

Well unless I have developed poor concepts on my way up through life .. then ... I have experienced the ranking of living beings ( if that is the correct word ) . not so much about who can catch and eat another species. ---------------DEFINITION ( mine ) ----- -HIERACHY ---------------------------- I think in terms of , intelligence, obvious responsibility, care of others including the young, cleverness , respectful fear of those more dominent and cleverer than oneself. Responsibility to the surrounding environment . And no doubt a host of other features. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I am looking for three categories in an ascending series of layers of the living environment . Increasing and decreasing in status . I nominated ones that I was able to consider and experiment with. They are in ascending status :- 1. Gold fish as I have an environment , where such exist , and I can experiment with. 2. Humans as I have personal experiences both in this life and ( in both of the other layers ) 3. Supernatural , investigations into the likelihood of God(s) and other greater than human beings . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have particular questions on any of these thee categories, I am happy to give whatever I am able . Mike