Intoscience

I can think of one - nonsense 😝

I think Zaptos is on the right track with his reply to this question. MigL then goes o to make what I feel are some valid points. This is sort of where I'm at. I think the misconception is that I'm against reparations for injustices towards black people. This couldn't be further from the truth. I would just prefer reparations to be calculated based on individual losses. In that the reparation process doesn't need to follow any racially lead approach even if the outcome is that the majority of cases will be based on skin colour. If you want to focus on a particular group and use a mechanism which compensates based on the defining factor of that group then by all means if this is the best way to fix the problems in the US then I'm in no position to pass judgement since I'm not a US citizen. No, you are misunderstanding what I mean. Sure you have been kicked in the nuts, I'm sure you feel like kicking them back in their nuts. This is the point. I don't think anyone is suggesting to do anything to cause further injustice or delay reparations. Why do you feel that we are trying to make it seem less wrong? I think in general I'm/we are trying to point out that any system that is successful in its goal requires consistences for all.

Fair enough I see your point. Again though this is an assumption from people who automatically assume the declaration is a defensive move as guise to cover the person's underlining racist attitude. And I get that people often use this as a defensive tact in many other contexts also. I think I'm probably blinded somewhat due to my own circumstances. My best friend is my partner's brother (that's how we met). I also accept that I'm not familiar with the situation in the US, so I understand that people from the US may not appreciate my comments. All this said, I still stand by my opinion that to eradicate racism (at least to reduce it to the extreme minority) we all need to change our attitudes. For me the first step is to divert attention away from the source of the issue, because the source of the issue really shouldn't matter and to make it not matter is to divert away from it. This doesn't mean we should ignore the problems that need fixing as a result of the source, on the contrary. Reparations, compensations... need to be made.

Then I have mis interpreted many posts over the past 19 pages worth. Fair enough, I'm happy for you to compensate as required asap. I can only imagine the situation in the US and comparing that to my own experiences within my own country they may not align. Likewise, someone from the US who has only experienced from that perspective may not be able to align their experiences with other countries across the world. Yet here we are often making arguments based on our own experiences and accusing each other of being wrong. Because some people jump on this and twist it to make racist accusations against others. I have been accused of being racist for not recognising and celebrating a person's skin color. On the other hand when recognising and acknowledging a person's skin color I have also been accused of being racist. So in the case of my anecdote I recognised that I could not attend the event because I'm not black, I was accused of being racist for stating that I was not invited to an event because it was for black people only. On the other hand I'm also a racist for not celebrating my friend's skin color, even though I recognise that Mike is a wonderful guy, a good, kind , honest and generous person.

And this is where the misconception arises. I mentioned about my friend being black because I was sharing an anecdote of an experience that I had as a result. However, skin color either way has no bearing on our friendship only when it is highlighted and forced upon us as in this example. In fact we never even consider the skin color difference because it doesn't matter, I don't see Mike as a black man and likewise, he doesn't see me as a white man, we just see, respect and love each other as dear friends. . But people are still insisting that it does when it suits! And this is my point, your reaction to my anecdote exemplifiers this very thing. You are assuming wrongly that it matters to me be it consciously or subconsciously when really, honestly really it matters not and is not even a consideration until its forced upon us by some system or other. I'm saying its time to see past this, to change people's attitudes is to change their perception. Lets not make it a thing then that thing may cease to exist. I wasn't comparing the atrocities towards one past or present over bad feelings towards another. I was sharing an example of where skin color discriminates (in an attempted positive manner), and that this is not necessary.

That's not what we are arguing about, of course people should be compensated for injustice in these instances. We are arguing whether compensation should be made based on the colour of their skin or the way they where treated. Yes, they may have been discriminated against or mistreated due to the colour of their skin but the process to compensate people should not have to follow the same mechanism. e.g - "oh you have black skin and as a result, we will compensate you accordingly" "we are sorry that you where discriminated against, we will compensate you accordingly" There is no reason invoke for the purpose of compensation anything other than the fact they have been ill treated. Each individual knows why they were mis-treated, the people making the compensation know why. The very mechanism that was used to discriminate in the first instance, doesn't need to be repeated for the purpose of reparation. However, for the purpose of improvement and mitigation the details of why they have been mistreated should be at the fore front and should be recognised and dealt with accordingly. I get a little exasperated when considering with racism based on skin color. There often seems to be a lack of consistency. There is a difference between recognising the differences and celebrating the differences in a way that encourages further racism. My best friend is black, great, he is proud of his heritage, great. He is my very good friend who I love dearly, he has a darker skin tone than mine, so what. He is off to an event organised for black people, he apologises to me, he would love to invite me but can't. "Why? I'm your best friend", "yeah but you are not black". This attitude persists in current times, the exact same thing that white people (and I'm sure still do in some areas) did to black people in the past. The way black people were treated in the past, and some in modern times, was/is atrocious behaviour, they deserve compensation, agreed. However, so long as this attitude persists whether positive or negative, then racism based on skin color will never be eradicated. We need to get past this, and see people for who they are as people not what they look like.

Thanks, worrying times for our employees! Because it's not just the US that suffers from inflation, interest rates, cost of living etc... There are other countries affected with similar issues.

To add to the topic I thought I should share with you some real life experience which is happening right now. The company I work for manufactures and the sells its products 80% directly to the public, 20% wholesale. As a result of increasing costs across the board, material supplies, energy, logistics & significant wage increases. The business is very labour intensive compared to its turn over so contributes to a high percentage of additional incurred cost. The business had no choice but to increase the retail price of the products from 10-20% (product range depending). Guess what, sales have significantly fallen, both retail and wholesale. The company has now no other choice but to either make redundancies or put the staff on short time working. This is the reality of the economical market across the globe for lots of businesses. As from next week I'll be on short time working so earning 20% less. Honestly I would have prefeed the business not to have made the wage increases, kept jobs and people who now face difficult times due to a significant loss in income.

I don't agree that it's useless to attempt, and I think that's where a few of us disagree with some of the arguments put forward. Even if its not possible to eradicate racism completely (most likely reality) a start would be to reduce it. I just feel that some methods employed to compensate those that have faced injustice will only invoke future racial tension or compound the current attitude of those who may not be direct active racists but have racist tendencies due to there social upbringing/environment. Of course you are always going to have the minority radical groups who no matter what will remain racists both white and black. Agreed these attitudes are going to be difficult, probably impossible, to eradicate. People in general, are more accepting when changes are more subtle. You see this with kids, and as adults we still tend to be more tolerant and accepting with a considered approach. Where do you get this idea from? Who wants to delay anything? All I have seen so far on this thread is 2 arguments that want the same outcome but following differing methods to achieve it. But there's no point inflating the tyre without fixing the puncture properly first. Sure it may get you a few more miles down the road, but the problem still persists. You may stick a patch on it, inflate it, and then say there you go all fixed, only to find next time you are out in the middle of nowhere and it goes flat again leaving you worse off than when it punctured in the first place.

I agree with you, (my bold) this is really the point I'm trying to make. I feel in order to achieve this then in the first place we may require to ignore the differences. By this I mean that maybe we should ignore the differences for purposes of reparations and any other discriminate actions that might pursue. Highlighting the differences in these situations may ignite the very thing we are trying to eliminate. My daughter has severe learning difficulties, she is 21 years old, cannot form a sentence only uses random words and hand gestures to communicate in her own way and understanding. But one thing she does do is try to gain attention by doing things, e.g. she will stand near the tv with her hand over the power button waiting for a response. If we engage with her and highlight that she should not press it, guess what, she does so. In my experience to divert attention from something the easiest way is to "ignore" it. Not ignore that it doesn't exist! Ignore it in a way so that it matters not for that particular situation. Do you see my point? I'm not saying we should ignore people's difference's as though they don't exist, I'm saying lets not highlight those differences in situations where they should not matter. Thank you for clearing things up, If I come across upset or offended this is not my intention either. I'm as passionate as most for making the world a better place to live, for all people! I just worry that sometimes in our efforts to do so we may just end up making things worse. I know you aimed this at String Junky but may I reply, I don't believe any of us think that or perceive that stance. I think the argument is that we feel you are ignoring the possibility that pursuing the reparations in a manner that may invoke further racism is not the way forward. Wow, that is a very judgemental approach towards your fellow posters. You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions. Good luck with that.

I agree, probably unattainable in reality. But this should not prevent us from trying and at least starting somewhere on the right footing.

Honestly, there is no point in responding to you. We have clearly different views on the subject (even though we want the same eventual outcome). No matter how I respond you will twist my comments, and throw it back at me. But here goes, There you go my bold, skin color is used by racists to degenerate and demean (all good so far). So it is used as an attributing factor - "feature as characteristic" to discriminate against. Yes I've stop using fighting fire with fire, a better analogy is using water to douse a chemical fire. I'm proud to be white, I'm proud of my heritage, I love my skin color, can this imply I consider my self as part of a superior race? This is exactly how racism came about (in the context of this thread). Can we just stop this nonsense, and see people as people regardless of their color, weight, height ethnics...

You are the one who spends time arguing the definitions, constantly, across all subjects. You often interject with such, either for attention, obfuscation or to divert the discussion. I was merely returning the favour. I agree with Marcus. Lets just get back to the OP. Nope, I just like to use a patch that stays on for continued use

Unless there is a poisonous critter stuck in there, that if ingested would kill him in the most horrific painful death. I guess we can abstract as much as we like. The reality is there are certain things that are for the good of all people. Like saving the planet, avoiding large meteor strikes etc... but when it gets down to morality and other more finely detailed things, then well, this is where it gets debatable. Conflating the 2 is probably my mistake, but is also the mistake made by others. Reparation using subtle revenge style tactics changes things.

My father supports Stoke City, because he played for them in the under 21 squad, his mentor and hero was Stanley Matthews. He quit to go earn more money working down the pit. I went on to support Port Vale instead, my son supports Man United.

As iNow states, you need to be specific regarding the item you want to polish and to what finish. Then you can opt for the best (usually the easiest that produces the desired results) option for your item. There are also differing grades (quantity ratios etc... of steel, chromium, nickel & other minerals) of stainless so some will polish easier than others.

What is good for one man may be bad for another. That is the point of our arguments. Define a good man (person). It's not about an ideal outcome, we all know this is unattainable. For starters what would be an ideal outcome for 8 billion people? It's about using the right tools, the right approach, one or many which do no further damage. Chucking a few dollars at every homeless person you meet may seem like the kind thing to do, but does it solve homelessness? But don't you see, by not ignoring color for the purpose of retribution is a false virtue? Yes it is (my bold) skin color is one of, if not the most fundamental attributing factors that invokes racism. By choosing not to ignore it only further invokes the very thing you are trying to dispel. Cut it which ever way you want to, even positive discrimination by skin color, only compounds the problem further down the line. It's like trying to put out a chemical fire with water. Just to be clear, the idea of ignoring skin color has nothing to do with being noble or virtuous, it couldn't be further from this premise. It's about recognising people as people, all equal. Isn't that what we all want?

Yes, I think we (all of us) want people to be treated equally and injustices compensated for. I tend to be in the school of thought of make it simple where possible. So yeah, I'd agree something maybe better than nothing. But to rid the system of racism the system has to stop discriminating by colour or race. Whether this is achievable in reality and still able to get satisfactory results begs the question. Honestly I doubt it, there will always be victims of change. Yeah I'd vote for it sure. But in my experience people (politicians) who claim to give you the world end up selling you a rock to chuck instead.

Good luck with that one.

I'm not sure but it seems like you are confounding mathematical concepts with physical objects. For instance you have been given examples of mathematical concepts based on infinite sets. In physical reality however the idea of "infinite number of objects" might not be possible. Mathematics can lead to infinities when modelling physical reality. One example being the singularity predicted at the centre of a black hole this brings into question the possibility of physical infinities. However, space itself maybe infinite, it exists (we are part of it) but it may not end. In which case there would be room to fit an infinite number of objects, in which case we may assume but not confirm that they "all" exist without end. Counting them "all" would take an infinite amount of time though, so in this instance there would be no way to confirm there is an infinite number of them. Mind blowing stuff and a subject that is discussed profusely across all science/math forums.

On the contrary, this is not what I'm saying. I fully agree past injuries and existing wounds need to be dealt with. My argument is around the suitability of the prescribed treatment. What bandages are to be used, what medicine needs to be prescribed and what post treatment should follow to continue to mend old wounds, rid out infections and ensure no more are inflicted. I see your argument as - one medicine, one band aid, one treatment fix all aimed specifically at one group. Which may inadvertently cause further infections not just for those who have old/existing wounds, but also for those which may become susceptible to future ones as result. In my opinion (maybe idealistic) would be an more considered approach aimed at all wounded both past and present, but also any possible side effects of the treatment. Ideally by using the correct band aid for each individual wound, using medicine that is not likely to cause side effects for the patient or others. Followed by treatment which vaccinates against or better still eradicates this infectious disease for all people (racism).

I think there are 2 schools of thought that are butting heads to try and get the same outcome with differing solutions. One school of thought in simplified terms is proposing that people in a group (identified by a certain skin colour) have been discriminated against because of their skin colour and therefore all persons with that skin colour should be compensated accordingly. So in essence, the argument is that, they where discriminated against by identification of their skin colour and so therefore should be compensated by the same mechanism - Discrimination between groups by skin colour both negatively and positively. On the counter to this there is an acceptance that people were discriminated against by their skin colour but also many other people in many other groups have been discriminated against by race or colour. That these people should be compensated for this, not by positive racial or colour discrimination but by induvial assessment which does not use colour/race as a discriminative process. One could argue that the outcome of the counter view would overwhelmingly be discriminative anyway by colour, since the vast majority of those compensated would be from a certain group defined by skin colour. But the argument is that to cease discrimination by virtue of skin colour one must change the systems operate in a way that ceases to use skin colour or race as a mechanism for group identification. So I think this is Jez's point with the statement - "stop seeing people as black or white". Now, I get both arguments, my feelings and morals tend me towards sympathy and understanding of retribution (I'm a eye for an eye type of person in general). But my logical side understands that to eliminate a problem completely, one must cease using mechanisms which may inadvertently compound the problems even further so they may not continue into the future.

I'm just trying to get my head around what we are agreeing & disagreeing on. Points we all seem to agree on. People have been negatively discriminated against because of their skin colour These among many others currently and throughout history have been unfairly treated due to race People unfairly treated should be compensated in some form Points we which there seems to be disagreement on. Current and historical data surrounding the levels and directly to who the unfair treatment has occurred and not been compensated for. Level of compensation (who gets what and what is fair) At what cost to who and how should compensation be paid (who takes responsibility) What would be appropriate justice (at what point would a satisfactory conclusion be acceptable) How, when and by what mechanism/system to stop all racial discrimination should be conducted There maybe more and finer details, but we can all agree that racism should stop and where possible those unfairly treated compensated accordingly.

I interpret Jez's posts as the opposite... that racism, or rather skin colour, is often used to muddy things. But hey ho... I'm more than happy to stand corrected if otherwise.

When we are wrong or when we don't agree or align with your point of view? (Just to be clear, Personally I don't ignore people and I don't give negative reps even if i find a post offensive or distasteful, obviously what you do is your prerogative).