Intoscience

Self-awareness is important, also is the ability to consider values. If G.A.I becomes self learning then what ever we initially program into will be futile. A self-aware self learning entity, that is potentially smarter and more powerful than we are is a very concerning threat to humanity. This is what I meant by post humanity. If a smarter more advanced entity doesn't value human life then it will either do 1 of 3 things. 1. It will unwittingly eradicate human existence. 2. It will wittingly eradicate human existence. 3. It will just ignore human existence. If it does value human life then it may do 1 of 2 things. 1. It will ignore human existence. 2. It will aid in the survival of human existence.

It's not about, awareness. It's about the possibility of human extinction and what if any remnants of our existence survives and maybe even continues to prosper. Lets say for example we are successful in producing some form of G.A.I that is aware, or at least has the capability of consideration and replication/reproduction.. If we are never successful in leaving our planet and colonising others then we are inevitably going to become extinct. Unless we find a way of saving our planet, from the sun's inflation or preventing large meteorite strikes, then I see no alternative other than to move from Earth. All this assuming in the meantime we don't destruct ourselves or outgrow our resources or die from infection...

Yes, I'm rather fond of this idea, for a couple of reasons. It appears though not conclusive that we - a technological life form are a rare possibly anomaly amongst life in general. certainly looking at evolution on the Earth we are the latecomers and the odd ones out. The age of the universe though old from our perspective is still very young compared to its own life span. The universe could still be very much in its infancy in which case we could be very early to the party. So its most plausible that there is only one and we are it. Going with the A.I theme I feel this is a topic to be a more serious and mostly likely near future scenario to consider. Aliens, well if they are out there, how advanced are they, how far away are they, and what period of time do they/have existed in.

I have no problem dismissing ideas that are shown to be impossible. I have no problem filtering through ideas that maybe plausible but unlikely. For example FTL, our current understanding of physics shows FTL to be impossible. So based on this I would most likely dismiss anything that directly implies FTL. However there are ideas to find loop holes around this that maybe plausible given some high energy circumstances such as wormholes, space time curving, parallel timelines etc... all fanciful yes, granted, but not impossible. Ok, so why is the discussion of A.I advanced intelligence dismissible as being sci-fi? Why is the discussion of Alien intelligence dismissible as being sci-fi? Just to be clear when I state sci-fi in this context I mean - impossible fantasy - not what is currently unproven but plausible.

The problem is that anyone who puts their neck on the line to discuss these topics are ridiculed as nut jobs, fantasists or judged similarly. Another trend which i find rather odd, since Aliens are more than plausible given the vastness and age of the universe. A.I is developing at a rate which is alarming to some leaders in the field. If you are a scientist who believes in aliens or A.I sentience (or intelligence that is equal to humans at least) your are sneered at. Yet if you believe in god that's fine. I find is sad and ironic. I think Eric Weinstein talks about this attitude - Remain skeptical, but please remain openminded to possibilities that are plausible. Do you dismiss the idea of life beyond our planet and/or intelligent life beyond our planet?

Nope, I can't be sure but somehow I doubt human interaction hasn't changed so much in the past few hundred maybe thousands of years. Flat Earth, Earth at the centre of the solar system, etc... A.I becoming intelligent, life beyond our planet... No? This doesn't make any sense to me. The odds whether or not it may or may not happen doesn't dis include the subject from being a possibility and speculating on the what the consequences might or might not be. I never understood this dismissive skeptical attitude. Being skeptical is a good thing, being totally dismissive of plausible possibilities, seems rather an odd stance to me. Filtering through ideas to stack up the odds so focus remains on the most likely possibility makes perfect sense. But as we have often found even the rare and sometimes unpredictable happens also. I always refer back to a couple of adages - Never say never. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best and usually its somewhere in between. Ok, fair enough you are in a much better position than me to argue this. But by your own admission A.I "now". So do you think that it is quite possible and/or given current advancements AI in the near future may have the capability?

Depends on your definition of science fiction. If you want to choose every idea that is currently not doable but at some point in the future is plausible or maybe even possible then sure its all science fiction. I'm sure many scholars back in the day dismissed the ides of people in flying machines, devices that could communicate over thousands of miles, the ability to cook food in small devices in just a few minutes... any speculation about the future is going to based somewhat on your definition of science fiction. You seem very confident that A.I is never going to become so intelligent that it has the potential to dominate the human race. You are a computer programmer, so I respect your opinion on this matter. Honestly I hope you are right. And as you say its just for fun, I'm not advocating anything I'm merely speculating on what I believe are plausible, granted somewhat fantastical, possibilities for our future. i chose the speculation forum since this whole thread is based on speculation, personal opinion and plausible though possibly fanciful ideas. I respect your speculation, I shared the same and may possible flit back (I tend to on many of these subjects). Though I will point out. All our ideas are based on our experiences and our current understanding of science and available technology. Your speculation is based on (rightly so) this. We assume, A.I and/or Aliens would share our motives, abilities, intelligence... when we speculate skeptically.

Which is why I posted it in speculations and why i'm not trying to advocate anything specific. I was just writing down my current thoughts and open for discussion. If its a problem then feel free to close the thread. But in my mind, yes, its not current mainstream science but some may one day become so and there is good evidence to suggest this based on current technology development. Additionally during the discussion there's no reason why all the above and anything else can't be debunked, it may help clear up a few things for other readers. Yes, this is a very big sticking point especially so for human colonisation of distant places, even close by star systems with are current technology and understanding are thousands of years away. i often ponder this problem and I agree the current understanding of physics limits human ability to travel outside our solar system. So, I ponder solutions which maybe not ideal but may offer some hope. people consider generation star-ships, cryogenic incubation... I think in reality visitation will not come about by biological humans. i imagine probes, A.I or similar which can endure the harsh environments and operate for long periods of time. Time is a problem for humans because it is currently very limited. So to find a solution to galactic travel, there might be 4 possible options. We find the capability to extend human lives or consciousness. We find a way to travel FTL. We find a way to warp space-time. We discover new physics where there are extra dimension that can be utilised. All 4 seem ridiculously impossible, I agree. But there are people working on at least 2 of those solutions. I'm skeptical but remain open minded and interested.

Ok, 50 years was a bit conservative, agreed. I'm not talking about the capability to kill us, I'm talking about an intelligence of some form with the ability to do so with us having no means of controlling their/its decision or the outcome. The year I specified is irrelevant to my point. Ok lets go with 200 years ago if it makes everyone feel better. Why do I feel like I'm spending all my time defending a position rather than discuss the speculation/assumptions and possibilities, gees... What is so fantastical about considering A.I to evolving beyond expectations and beyond human intelligence? Genady has gave reasons why Genady thinks/believes that this is far away if at all possible. What is so fantastical to imagine life beyond Earth that is further advanced in science and technology than we currently are? Both are plausible based on the information we have to hand and the history that precedes us?

Yes, to us now it seems that way. 50 years ago the internet would seem much the same to them. This is my point entirely, and one which I'm keen to explore. I don't want to fall into an emotional trap of assuming that all we conceive is fantastical or fiction. Although many of which will turn out to be granted, history shows us this but some will go beyond any expectations and be totally unprecedented. Ok, I see this is a topic all of its own and many hours of debate among many disciplines of science and philosophy. Your reply is a very broad statement and not specific to the context I'm considering. To be fair to you, I cannot really describe in terms of any real definition of what I personally consider as human intelligence. But if I'm being specific in one aspect, then this would be the ability to reason, predict and react in such away that any engagement would be futile. As above, specific intelligence which could result in the demise of humanity?

Ok, I know you have an expert view on this due to your Masters in computer programming. So I appreciate your take. When you talk about human intelligence within this context what are you comparing to? also are you predicting that "human like" or greater intelligence is either not possible by a machine or so far in the future its not suitable to make predictions around?

Hi and welcome, Yes, it can be all very confusing and also wonderous! Someone will be along shortly who can give you a very detailed and accurate description of what light is and how it interacts with the environment and objects. But in brief light is a form of energy that comes in discreet packages called photons which in themselves have no mass. The colours and in fact all light both visible and nonvisible (to the naked eye) such as things like radio waves, microwaves, infra red etc.. have specific wave lengths across a wide spectrum. The individual colors that you see are the individual wave lengths of light across a narrow spectrum, and how light interacts with the medium it comes into contact with determines the wave length of the reflected photons. So in general when photons come into contact with an object they get scattered in different directions and at different (wave lengths) the frequencies of photons your eyes are able collect sit within certain band width that your brain can then build a picture from this. (quite amazing really!) Just to add since photons have no physical size in terms of how you imagine particles, they are not like the particles of gas and other matter which you imagine them to be.

Yes, true, maybe so... Though as history has shown us, predictions about the future are often over or under egged and many times unprecedented. Would you agree or not that A.I is developing at a rate such that the timeline predicts imminent intelligence versatility performance beyond human capability? If no why not and if so how long before such?

Very clever, I'm amazed by the talents of people. Art can be a representation of their talent and an expression of their imagination. I'm always in awe of such.

Fine, you are making an assumption based on your own ideas/beliefs/understanding. I'm doing the same to a degree, though on first appearance it may seem rather fanciful. One could easily imagine going back 100 years with an example of current technology, it would seem like magic or beyond understanding to that generation.

Does it have to be 1000 years from now to consider implications of imminently pending technological advancement that has the potential for so much change? Do you think that such is beyond your life or your children's life? In addition what happened 10,000 years ago did have an impact on your life today. knowing the evolution that went before to result in your life today is and can be useful. You don't require personal relation to understand or feel/observe the effects. Why does it beg this question? The question it might beg is - who or what will be/is the supreme leader, collectively or singularly speaking?

Ok, so I've been pondering all the above for a while now. I've been considering, human evolution, development, advancements, consequences, purpose... I find it all very fascinating but also confusing, chaotic, sometimes troubling sometimes exciting, always wonderous. Like many people interested in science in general, I have considered all the questions, philosophy mainstream science, data and observations surrounding humanity, our place in the universe, our purpose (if there is one) and our future. I often wander from on idea to another from one belief (for want of a better word) to another swapping camps so to speak depending on the latest trend or data set or idea... There is so much to think about, so many possibilities and so little resolution that it can be exciting, frustrating and wonderous all wrapped up together. Ok, so enough of the rambling and to the point, I listened to a debate surrounding the Tic Tac incident involving observations and witness statements from Commander David Fravor and his team. here is a link to the wiki page on the subject matter should anyone not be over familiar with the case -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_UFO_videos So far as I can tell there has been no credible resolution to what was witnessed and recorded. The UFO/UFA alien speculation camp are claiming that this is clear evidence of alien technology due to the unexplainable motion of the objects. Then the skeptic camp are claiming an array of normal explainable phenomenon as an explanation and that the data has been so far diagnosed as inconclusive but the likelihood of alien visitation being zero. Then you have the conspiracy camp who claim this is clear evidence of military technology being secretly tested and by a government, USA or otherwise and the UFO/UAP story is a diversion. I was thinking about this and I realised it could be all the above, and more. The government/s would certainly have motive either way to invent a cover story to either protect secret military advancements, save face towards other nations, or control the potential hysteria from the public. The best lies are the ones that are mostly true! This then got me thinking about A.I aliens, and technological advancements in respect to humans. where we are heading, what the potential (good or bad) is and what this may mean for humanity in the future. I considered the following scenarios that I feel are plausible, though quite radical: Human technology will advance to a point where the technology (A.G.I) overtakes all to become the dominant force on the planet and possibly the galaxy Aliens are prevalent throughout the universe and within our own galaxy some which are far advanced in terms of scientific understanding that we would only recognise this as magic Future humans are so far advanced that they are capable of and so do so visit the past, possibly even manipulating timelines. his we would have no way of detecting. Future A.I is so far advanced that it has the capability to visit the past, even manipulating timelines. Humans are completely alone and are the pioneers of development which will lead to the population of the galaxy and then the universe. Humans are a blip on the timeline, an anomaly, nothing more than a very rare and random phenomena. Where this blip might grow and evolve over a long period of time or just suddenly end as quickly as it came to be. Human advancements will continue, but slow down, and we will reach the limits of what is possible. As it stands these are just a handful of ideas floating around in my simple mind. Each time I watch, read or listen to something new I tend towards one or the other on this list. Currently my speculation is that. We are being observed. We are being watched intently, especially so since the birth of atomic weapons. When we began the nuclear program and started to detonate such weapons of mass destruction we became of some interest. Why? well maybe the pattern of development trends such that the next step/breakthrough in technology enables the ability to traverse across star systems. At this point we become a possible threat, nuisance or ally.

Ah, ok thanks for clearing that up. Much appreciated.

Has this been proven? I was under the impression that it was still unclear why space expands, thus why "dark energy" is inferred? I'm only asking because I'm a layman when it comes to this subject. Thanks.

Am I correct in thinking that the expansion only affects areas where gravity is too weak to overcome the expansion (dark energy)?

Just to add I have a daughter with special needs who is very unpredictable. She will often walk past my PC and hit buttons as fast as a Ninja! I have to be very careful when on teams calls with work while she is around. So lets talk - N

What is the question???

I can't say i noticed but its an interesting thought. I can say that the older persons in the group expressed a slight bias towards nature, whilst the younger appeared more open to the idea of nurture. That (my bold) did make me chuckle, I was sipping on my morning coffee while reading it and spat half out all over my pc key board. I was watching a documentary following the lives of teenage Mormons who were heading off to missionary college. One teenage lad even after years of in doctrine, decided to abandon the religion because he wanted to peruse gay relationships. His sister did continue on to the missionary college though she did find some of the expectations difficult, especially so when in social groups from other religious/culture backgrounds .To be fair to the parents they were very accepting (at least on the face of it) of their son's decision. I wonder though if the fact that their daughter was willing to continue on, helped with this acceptance. Personally though I never understood why some religions or cultures were and continue to be unaccepting of gay relationships. People should be free to love whom ever they like, and not feel persecuted or discriminated for it.

Yes, and this is ridiculous also. Why ban gay marriage?? makes no sense! If persons choose to commit to a contractual agreement and spend their lives together in matrimony, why should their sex or gender have anything to do with it? Going back to the OP, I was talking about this topic with a bunch of friends and asked whether they believed sexual orientation was nature or nurture. Interestingly the views were quite divided and it raised plenty of food for thought within the group.

Yes, I have made an observation, based on your comments across countless threads. You are clearly a very intelligent and well informed person, I respect this. I do agree with you on other subjects and more than willing to express this. The recent thread on homelessness being one example. However I feel that you are clever with the way you snippet other poster's comments in a way that may misrepresent their intent or the context. You have demonstrated exactly my point in your reply. I understand (I think) your argument but I don't agree. I still stand by my feelings and comments. I don't believe that its constructive either way to conflate a personal taste with respect to feelings towards people with differing tastes.