Electronic_engine Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) force from nothing is very different from energy from nothing, we can increase force as we want without exerting any other external force, not only magnetic force, this example shows this, it is the same as collecting gravitational force from all volume to a single place: imagine that there are two surfaces which are perfectly horizontal , they are also identical and they are exactly at the same height ,one surface is very close to the other however they are distinct they don't touch, now there is a car on the first surface this car has a particular weight W and the first surface exerts a normal force on it equals W , there is not any forces on the other surface , however suppose the car moved towards the other surface with very little force (no friction) and the car moved totally from the first surface to the second one, the force acted on the second surface by moving the car with force tend to zero. also we can increase the normal force on surface 2 by collecting other cars!! moving those other cars with forces tend to zero will increase the normal force. this normal force will increase with external force tend to zero , now this is not generating energy from nothing , however it is generating force from nothing we did not do VERTICAL work by moving the cars horizontally because the two surfaces are the same height., we can also decrease force by returning the cars in their places . Edited May 19, 2015 by Electronic_engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Force and energy are not independent concepts. Your cars system doesn't seem to make sense. I wouldn't muddy the waters with it but stick to your initial oscillator proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electronic_engine Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Force and energy are not independent concepts. they are , if the displacement is zero energy will always has no value (=zero) even if force increases without bound. I wouldn't muddy the waters with it but stick to your initial oscillator proposal. my proposal was not a good working oscillator , it was an experiment that contains oscillator , the car system is another experiment supporting the same concept Your cars system doesn't seem to make sense. how ? Edited May 19, 2015 by Electronic_engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Klaynos, on 19 May 2015 - 11:58 AM, said: Your cars system doesn't seem to make sense. how ? Here is an example of a meaningless near sentence that may mean something if put right, but we don't know what you actually want to say so we don't know how to help. they are , if the displacement is zero energy will always has no value (=zero) even if force increases without bound. Edited May 19, 2015 by studiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 If the displacement is 0 then there is no movement. I don't see how that could be interesting. Any symmetrically changing magnetic field inducing the forces is now a force from nothing it's magnetism... The car example, I can't picture what you're trying to explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electronic_engine Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) If the displacement is 0 then there is no movement. that does not mean no forces exist , right ? I don't see how that could be interestingit does not matter to be interesting it matters that it exists. The car example, I can't picture what you're trying to explain.the normal force increases by moving many masses from different places to a single place, we move them by force tend to zero. Edited May 19, 2015 by Electronic_engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Magnetism exists. That is well known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrP Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 QUOTE:"We did not do VERTICAL work"... no - but work was done moving the cars horizontally. The force increases on the plate 2 as you put more weight on it by increasing number of cars? Of course it does... that's not generating force from nothing - it is increasing the force by adding more weight/mass, which isn't from nothing, it is from increasing the weight/number of cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electronic_engine Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) QUOTE:"We did not do VERTICAL work"... no - but work was done moving the cars horizontally. The force increases on the plate 2 as you put more weight on it by increasing number of cars? Of course it does... that's not generating force from nothing - it is increasing the force by adding more weight/mass, which isn't from nothing, it is from increasing the weight/number of cars. yes you are right this example of cars is not good ,only if we have frictionless surface so that no horizontal force will be exerted, returning to OP example of magnets we can get rid of the friction between the brown bar and magnet 2 by doing this experiment in vacuum , so that there will not be weight to cause friction , also we can get rid of the spring and use other magnets to work as spring. Edited May 19, 2015 by Electronic_engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Vacuum won't remove friction. And true vacuums don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electronic_engine Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Vacuum won't remove friction. And true vacuums don't exist.I suppose theoretically that it exists. Edited May 20, 2015 by Electronic_engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Only if you misuse the word theoretically or the theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electronic_engine Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) I depend on newton first law, that there is possibility for an object to move without resistant forces, if that will not happen practically or THEORETICALLY then there is not evidence not just for my theory but also for newton law of motion. so this the new model: magnets 1,2 and magnets 6,7 works as ideal spring, distance between magnet 5,6 is far , the brown bar goes inside magnet 3 and 5 without touching them , using starting force enable magnet 2 and 4 to oscillate by themselves non-stop , that will make force of magnet 5 on brown material changes continuously by itself that means it increases and decreases without external force this means force came from nothing. the thing I would like to ask is : will magnets conserve energy completely without losses , like induction ? if so then the device will work by itself forever as newton first law states. Edited May 20, 2015 by Electronic_engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) will magnets conserve energy completely without losses , like induction ? if so then the device will work by itself forever as newton first law states. When you study the physics and mathematics of oscillations the first thing you learn is that there is a disturbing force and a restoring force. Without these oscillation cannot and will not take place. The oscillation is controlled by the restoring force, not the disturbing force, which fact is entirely in accordance with Newton's laws. The disturbing force may act once only at the beginning or it may be continuous, in which case it is called a forcing function, but the restoring force must always be available as needed (ie it will be zero at some point in the cycle and vary in strength and direction over the cycle) The disturbing force is considered external and the restoring force considered internal to the system. Once the disturbing force has done some work on the system and thereby input some energy, the system forces take over. The restoring force is normally considered conservative ie it does not loose the energy input. There may or may not be dissipative forces acting, I have already agreed that for the purposes of this thought experiment we can discount friction. The normal way to do this is to say it is negligable so that although we know in the long run it will eventually loose all the energy, this may take a very long time, much longer than the timescale under consideration. There is also a second energy loss mechanism that can act called dispersion, which is not applicable in this case and leads to non linear oscillations. But you do not need to go to all this trouble to present such a system. The simple pendulum will go for a very long time in vacuo before the weak dissipative forces drain the initial impetus. It also demonstrates, quite clearly that Newton's first law requires the presence of the restoring force to reverse the direction of motion at the extremal points of the oscillation. There is also a thermodynamic viewpoint as it is possible to (theoretically) construct thermodynamic oscillators and the thermodynamic considerations are interesting as they link in with Newton's laws. Take an adiabatic pipe containing an ideal gas and a frictionless piston. The oscillator is made by giving the piston a displacement in the pipe. The piston will oscillate back and fore indefinitely in the absence of dissipative force. This is an interesting example in terms of entropy and energy considerations. Your magnetic linear oscillator has similar characteristics. However, Klaynos is right in the real world there will always be dissipative forces acting. For instance inductors have resistance and therefore resistive losses. Edited May 20, 2015 by studiot 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaynos Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Add as many magnets add you like the forces are all coming from the magnets, not from nothing. The system will oscillate if stated not at equilibrium and then stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypervalent_iodine Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 ! Moderator Note Thread closed on account of the OP being a previously banned member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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