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Invariance of the speed of light


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#61 swansont

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:48 AM

 

Well, the answer might be that the sound clock we are talking about is not a true sound clock. Yes, the pings are the result of sound waves travelling.

But the rest of the clock is made of material OTHER than sound waves. 

If the clock was ENTIRELY made of sound waves (however that might happen) then perhaps you would get a similar length contraction to the light clock.

So in comparing the two clocks, we're not actually comparing like for like.

 

 

There is no basis in theory to propose that sound undergoes length contraction, and

 

A sound clock made up completely of sound is a ridiculous suggestion. And it's not like for like, since a light clock is not comprised completely of light. You have a source, a mirror, and a detector. 


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#62 mistermack

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 10:56 AM

Having looked at length contraction, there appears to be no reason why it should not occur in this hypothetical sound-clock scenario, IF you actually were able to use sound clocks. 

The length contraction arises as a result of time dilation, so observers using sound clocks in different reference frames will measure different lengths for the same object.


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#63 geordief

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 11:07 AM

Having looked at length contraction, there appears to be no reason why it should not occur in this hypothetical sound-clock scenario, IF you actually were able to use sound clocks. 

The length contraction arises as a result of time dilation, so observers using sound clocks in different reference frames will measure different lengths for the same object.

Would not a  hypothetical "sound clock" rely for its functioning on the em connections between processes? So a "sound clock" would be a derivative  of an "em clock"  and not a "sound clock" at all.

 

I have though long and hard(if feebly and ineffectively probably) on this  in the past and came to that conclusion eventually.


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#64 mistermack

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 11:32 AM

Would not a  hypothetical "sound clock" rely for its functioning on the em connections between processes? So a "sound clock" would be a derivative  of an "em clock"  and not a "sound clock" at all.

 

I have though long and hard(if feebly and ineffectively probably) on this  in the past and came to that conclusion eventually.

Yes, I'm sure that's right. I don't think it affects the topic particularly though. 

We don't know that EM is the most fundamental level of matter or energy. An EM clock might be a derivative of some even more fundamental processes that we are nowhere near discovering. But it all works at our present level of knowledge.


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#65 imatfaal

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 05:22 PM

Yes, I'm sure that's right. I don't think it affects the topic particularly though. 

We don't know that EM is the most fundamental level of matter or energy. An EM clock might be a derivative of some even more fundamental processes that we are nowhere near discovering. But it all works at our present level of knowledge.

 

At high energy scales we know that the forces unify - we have known about the electroweak for a long time now.  If you need to know more about that topic ask elsewhere.  The invariance of speed of light is a phenomenon at our everyday energy levels and it is an Electromagnetic effect - the invariance of the EM wave pops out of the Maxwell equations and is axiomatic to the most successful theories of physics


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#66 swansont

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 05:23 PM

Having looked at length contraction, there appears to be no reason why it should not occur in this hypothetical sound-clock scenario, IF you actually were able to use sound clocks. 

The length contraction arises as a result of time dilation, so observers using sound clocks in different reference frames will measure different lengths for the same object.

 

 

Show your work. Derive it.


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