SCIENCE - What actually is Science ?

[swansont]

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2. The INTERNET .

 

It seemed to appear out of the mist .

But it didn't and a little research will show that.

 

http://www.history.com/topics/inventions/invention-of-the-internet

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

But it didn't and a little research will show that.http://www.history.com/topics/inventions/invention-of-the-internet

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Excellent . A gem of a find !

 

Well , it was sort of a mist . Bits and bobs from lots of different directions , contributions on the way .

 

Very good link though , I must say . Just what was ordered.

 

Link :- http://www.history.com/topics/inventions/invention-of-the-internet

 

However , I will give a short recount from a citizens perspective , who was not privy to all that transparency at the time , during those years . I was there , but saw all this from a civilian and business perspective .

 

Mike

Edited April 2, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

During the 1960's , from my experience , ( working for one ) , large companies , had their individual installed main frame computers , occupying 2or 3 rooms . Large disc drives like washing machines , Ampex high speed tape recorders , hard memory with magnetic cores , and input punched cards or punched tape. Output by printers the size of a rack .( making the sound of a machine gun , when printing . I do not think there was any networks , at this time. I remember as an apprentice , on my motor cycle taking punched cards from one location to another by motor cycle. It was mainly the very large companies , and universities. There was a lot of machine code floating about , with fortran and pascal on smaller computers in universities.

 

Then somewhere along the 1970's as computers came more manageable ( everything in one modest room ) networking around the factories and business started to appear . ( I think the operating protocol/ software was UNIX ) . Then , because computers were talking to one another 'protocols ' of communication were adopted . ( handshaking , speeds etc ) . In the U.k. British telecom started placing node computers about the country LINKED , but few commercial users took up the facility. This was probably similar to the time the educational establishments and ministry of defence were setting up there own communication protocol.

 

The British telecom network was called PRESTEL. A major user were the Travel agencies , and this facilitated being able to go into a high street travel agent and they would book your holiday via Prestel. I got involved at around this time . I was making interconnection cables . I went to London to meet Prestel , they said there was a ' chicken and egg situation , " which comes first the users or the information providers " . This was a pressure for networks , and network users. Both were needed!

 

This coincided with IBM becoming not only a computer mainframe manufacturer but also a PERSONAL COMPUTER. In parallel with this a host of small home computers appeared for sale , all with different operating systems .

 

IBM wanted a disc operating software system for there new IBM Personal Computer .

 

Bill Gates won the contract and thus because of the volume of IBM PC,s The operating system for stand alone Pcs was :-

 

Microsoft Dos ( disc operating system) . Over this period 1970-1985, small home computers proliferated, some with different operating software, but ultimately with either MS Dos or the Apple system .

 

Once standardised like this , it was set for computers to talk to one another all over the country and indeed all over the world.

 

And so the men/ women named in the link quoted in the previous post , used there software skills ( possibly for other reasons, say the organisations that wanted to link for information purposes. ) , to set up some of the first ( internet links ) .

 

There was two additional requirements of a more mundane nature, ( the interconnecting leads for all these personal computers and printers , and some form of ' modem' ( to translate cables language to computer language ) . I got involved with this mundane side by helping in design and manufacture in both modem and cables .

 

The use of the internet as it had become in its infancy , tended to be , company to company , university to university , government to government , but gradually with all the PC's ending up in people's homes for other reasons like Games, letters , data storage., the internet users became very numerous as did providers . The chicken and egg problem was solved , users and providers appeared together. ( in their millions / today billions ) .

 

And so( since the turn of the century ' 2000' ) it has proliferated ever since , to where we are today with Lap tops , I pads , I phones as well as billions of PC ' s in companies world wide , all communicating via the INTERNET .

 

I hope that gives an external , yet to some extent very much , involved , view of the growth of isolated Mainframes to internet links all over the world .

 

Mike

Edited April 2, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

What does that have to do with "What is science?"?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

What does that have to do with "What is science?"?

Well if the definition of science is .

" The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. "

 

"systematic study of the structure and behaviour of through .......observation and experiment. "

 

" structure and behaviour"

 

Surely the operation of the internet , the computers, the semiconductors that these depend on , are all scientific phenomenon , which unless we understand and harness their structure and behaviour , then:-

 

No computers , no micro processors, no silicon ( memory x mega, giga ), no fibre optics , no internet .

 

So the INTERNET ( it's hardware ) depends almost in its entirety , on the STRUCTURE and BEHAVIOUR of nature . ( silicon)

 

By understanding its evolution , and the financial and developmental possibilities , it assists in provisioning us with a much clearer understanding of this area of science . Teased out over this period 1970- 2000

 

If there had not been an internet , there would not have been the funds to do the scientific research in microprocessors and the structure of silicon and doping so necessary for semi conductor operation .

 

The structure and behaviour of semiconductor material , must be one of the most influential science applications of all time !

 

Surely?

 

The world is full of sand !

 

Mike

Edited April 2, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Depends, sure. But it's not example of it happening. You're giving examples of improved technology, not basic science.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Depends, sure. But it's not example of it happening. You're giving examples of improved technology, not basic science.

Sand , quartz , silicon dioxide

 

Link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand

 

Can't get much more basic science than that !

 

 

We could go into the structure of the semiconductor , I suppose ? " Silicon Valley " ? ,

 

Control . That's what you need to deal with ;information. ; Numbers . ; electrical signals , binary states ( 0,1) .

Switches , relays , valves . ........ Then someone discovered Silicon., at least they knew it was there!

Our continental crust , that we walk about on is mainly silicon and aluminium molecules.mixed with various other rock materials , Both will conduct , but Silicon was found to be able to be ' switched ' . on or off , Binary , sounds a bit computer orientated.

 

But it had to be discovered , how to switch with silicon ? By refining it , purifying it, and ' doping it '

 

Mike

Edited April 2, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

But it had to be discovered , how to switch with silicon ? By refining it , purifying it, and ' doping it '

 

The transistor was designed using the mathematics of quantum theory.

[ajb]

There seems to be some mixing of science, engineering and technology here.

 

Science is about understanding nature. To do this you may need to develop lots of technology, for example Hertz engineered his experimental apparatus to test Maxwell's theoretical predictions. From there some of this technology was further engineered, for example by Marconi, to enable a practical use.

 

This kind of story can be found for many other items of technology, all of which require some understanding of basic science before they could be developed.

 

But to be clear: I would separate scientists and engineers not by what they do, but why they do it.

 

 

But it had to be discovered , how to switch with silicon ? By refining it , purifying it, and ' doping it '

Semiconductors were originally discovered by Faraday. Basic Schottky diodes have been used singe the early 20th century.

 

However, it is only after the second world war was there a growth in experimental and theoretical understanding of semiconductors (Bell labs played a big role), and as Strange points out an understanding of quantum mechanics was fundamental in designing semiconductor devices like transistors.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

There seems to be some mixing of science, engineering and technology here.Science is about understanding nature. To do this you may need to develop lots of technology, for example Hertz engineered his experimental apparatus to test Maxwell's theoretical predictions. From there some of this technology was further engineered, for example by Marconi, to enable a practical use.This kind of story can be found for many other items of technology, all of which require some understanding of basic science before they could be developed.But to be clear: I would separate scientists and engineers not by what they do, but why they do it. Semiconductors were originally discovered by Faraday. Basic Schottky diodes have been used singe the early 20th century.However, it is only after the second world war was there a growth in experimental and theoretical understanding of semiconductors (Bell labs played a big role), and as Strange points out an understanding of quantum mechanics was fundamental in designing semiconductor devices like transistors.

.

 

Wow ! What a mixture .

 

Of course it is all one thing , it is only us by OUR definitions that makes it a mixture ! I would suggest !

 

Nature is what it is . It is how we decide , define and divide up the disciplines , that makes it either Science, Engineering or Technology . By OUR , not NATURE's definitions. I think ?

 

However as you have previously stated ' Definitions , are a pre requisite to serious discussion?

 

Perhaps so :-

 

So most of the 10 on my list . Are the finished technology . The engineering will have been mostly done in industry . The science is likely to have mainly been started, ( later developed ), in that early period .

 

So if we are looking for an example of a true scientist in part .....we are ..

 

....looking for some grey haired old soul , having argued the point with his colleagues, scratching his head , walking up and down some canal , somewhere , with his Jack Russel , saying " eureka " . I think there could be ............

 

Mike

 

Has any body seen this man , before , somewhere ?

Edited April 3, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.TELEVISION

 

So in this case , we will need to go back to the beginning to track down the place ' science' has at the beginning of Television

 

Mike

Edited April 3, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

So in this case , we will need to go back to the beginning to track down the place ' science' has at the beginning of Television

Broadcasting? Then it is again Maxwell's equations.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Broadcasting? Then it is again Maxwell's equations.

.

 

But the man that brought the first working model to demonstrate was " John Logie Baird "

 

Link :- http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/inventions-and-discoveries-of-the-twentieth-century/john-logie-baird-and-television/

 

See picture.

 

Mike

Edited April 3, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

But the man that brought the first working model to demonstrate was " John Logie Baird "

Yes, this is very well known. The point is he needed some working knowledge of science to engineer this. The development of the TV is not science, but in its development science was/is needed.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Yes, this is very well known. The point is he needed some working knowledge of science to engineer this. The development of the TV is not science, but in its development science was/is needed.

Quite ! It is that journey from Maxwell to that first working model that surely will constitute the ' science journey ' that Baird and his assistant ( as he had one to go in the other room to be filmed ) on that first demonstration. See what I can find !

 

 

Clearly the apparatus , is the sort of thing that any scientific investigator would make as a prototype model. This would be made by the ' originator' .

 

Mike

Edited April 3, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

A journey from science to engineering to technology that we all have in our home.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

A journey from science to engineering to technology that we all have in our home.

Not sure what quite , you mean ?

 

If I remember the story right , he first thought of this Idea of scanning the image ( which in principle we had up till about 10 years ago .

 

I think he thought of a spinning wheel with holes in a spiral going towards the centre. Where

each revolution , made one scan .

 

 

Mike

Edited April 3, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

Science is all about understanding the Universe. Engineering is about using this understanding for our direct benefit. Technology is the product of engineering.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Science is all about understanding the Universe. Engineering is about using this understanding for our direct benefit. Technology is the product of engineering.

.

Yes but where in a sequence of thinking or experimenting did Baird move from Science to Engineering ? He was no doubt thinking of Light , it's nature, reflections , detection of light by photocell, but to detect all at once? (?time ) no ! It would produce a mixture of signals no! ? But by scanning ? Yes and simultaneous displaying the same ? And somehow a scientist in his mind combines all these things to ' flip ' into engineering mode. While at the same time simultaneously thinking about the ' science to date ' of reflected images ( cameras) , light beams , photons , photocells . If I just ...... Etc Surely an inventor mixes pure science of nature with current availability of experimental equipment , or what new equipment he/ she needs to construct a test mechanism . Experiment .

 

Then they build a model , and test the feasibility .

 

Mike

Edited April 3, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

Yes but where in a sequence of thinking or experimenting did Baird move from Science to Engineering ?

As soon as they had development of technology in mind they moved from science to engineering. They were not looking to further understand the nature of electromagnetic radiation, but rather to use it. I hope you see the difference.

 

 

And somehow a scientist in his mind combines all these things to ' flip ' into engineering mode.

Indeed, well in experimental physics for sure. A large part of the work can be in engineering the apparatus needed. Maybe swansont can say a lot more about this as he must have more experience that I do in building equipment.

 

 

Surely an inventor mixes pure science of nature with current availability of experimental equipment , or what new equipment he/ she needs to construct .

Sure. The point is that an inventor wants to invent some technology/product etc. He may use science but his main motivation is not the science itself.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

As soon as they had development of technology in mind they moved from science to engineering. They were not looking to further understand the nature of electromagnetic radiation, but rather to use it. I hope you see the difference.Indeed, well in experimental physics for sure. A large part of the work can be in engineering the apparatus needed. Maybe swansont can say a lot more about this as he must have more experience that I do in building equipment.Sure. The point is that an inventor wants to invent some technology/product etc. He may use science but his main motivation is not the science itself.

Well now , there is some interesting perceptions of scientifically inclined engineers , thinkers, researchers .

 

It would be nice if everybody was in there own Box .

 

Person A goes in to work . They are told " do something and research pure science and find something ! "

Person B goes in to work . they are told " do something and Engineer a solution to person A's discovery

Person C falls out of bed in the night , hits his head on a dead Cat and thinks up this amazing imaginary concept, metaphors , analogy ' willing suspension of disbelief ' which goes into science for a 100 years .

 

But life is not so predictable amongst the human species, surely . That's what makes me walk by the canal with the dog , and ' think ' there is something very interesting going on here ?

 

 

Mike

Edited April 3, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

Well now , there is some interesting perceptions of scientifically inclined engineers , thinkers, researchers .

It can be more about their motivation that what they actually do that (loosely) separates scientists from engineers.

[Strange]

But life is not so predictable amongst the human species, surely . That's what makes me walk by the canal with the dog , and ' think ' there is something very interesting going on here ?

 

The problem with this is that you don't seem to want to go beyond "there is something very interesting going on here". You could research what others have found out about similar phenomena. You could record the varying weather and water conditions when you see this effect and try and understand it yourself.

 

But you seem to have ignored any attempts at explanation or suggestions for research, and just gone off on a tangent about the relationship between science and engineering (and the history of certain tehchnologies).

 

Do you prefer leaving things unexplored and mysterious, rather than trying to understand them? (So a type D, that is not in your list?)

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The problem with this is that you don't seem to want to go beyond "there is something very interesting going on here". You could research what others have found out about similar phenomena. You could record the varying weather and water conditions when you see this effect and try and understand it yourself.

 

But you seem to have ignored any attempts at explanation or suggestions for research, and just gone off on a tangent about the relationship between science and engineering (and the history of certain tehchnologies).

 

Do you prefer leaving things unexplored and mysterious, rather than trying to understand them? (So a type D, that is not in your list?)

Well that is fair comment , and no doubt , will , at some stage , but my life is fairly full one way or another . Something really 'weird ' happens as you get older and older , TIME , gets faster and faster , and faster and it goes by Wooosh ! Wooosh ! Zing ! And I get slower and slower !

 

It's a perception but true (none the less ) !

 

Mike

Edited April 3, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Sand , quartz , silicon dioxide

 

Link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand

 

Can't get much more basic science than that !

I assure you, the computer industry did not invent or discover sand.

 

But it had to be discovered , how to switch with silicon ? By refining it , purifying it, and ' doping it '

Right. And the processors based on that came AFTER this was discovered.

Person C falls out of bed in the night , hits his head on a dead Cat and thinks up this amazing imaginary concept, metaphors , analogy ' willing suspension of disbelief ' which goes into science for a 100 years .

C, no doubt, for "caricature" of how science happens.