Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Alien life could use vastly different forms of technology than we do. So much so that we could be inundated by alien tech and not even realize it. I'm not sure what your point is here. Quote I have no implied people shouldn't investigate. Indeed I think you did, no one much less me is suggesting that UFOs are anything but unknowns. I am suggesting that the current paradigm of "nothing to see here move along" is self defeating... Quote I think it proves neither. There could have been something there like a helicopter, alien ship, hot air balloon, etc. Nothing could have been there and the whole thing was a hallucination. It was late at night. Everyone could have been asleep or on the verge of it and were responding to my father who himself may have been having some sort of waking dream. All possibilities are on the table. I didn't see anything and I was sitting directly next to and looking out the same windows of those claiming to see something. I was also a young kid (9 or 10 years ) so my memory of events isn't reliable either. Ok, I'll agree that it proves nothing but that calls into question why you used that example... Quote People are actively looking. There are many scientists and amateur scientists investigating UFOs around the clock. There are radio shows, TV shows, books, documentaries, youtube channels, and etc, etc devoted to this issue. Are you familiar with the saying "if it makes dollars it make sense"? There is real money in UFOs which drives real research (and fallacious research). And no matter what these people find it's never enough, they do not have the qualifications necessary to get a proper response to anything they find much less have the resources to really investigate the issue. The air of ridicule surrounding the issue makes sure that anyone who wants to look risks loosing the respect of his peers at the very least... At the very least the idea that current investigations are anything but the equivalent of children being sent out to search for tasmanian tigers instead of professionals... 7 minutes ago, dimreepr said: What if the corpse turned out to be Jesus shaped? All humans are Jesus shaped, what is your point? Quote Why? For the same reason discovering anything profoundly new and unknown is important. What could be more important than to learn if, how, and why aliens are colonizing the outer solar system? Edited May 11, 2018 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Moontanman said: All humans are Jesus shaped, what is your point? 7 minutes ago, Moontanman said: For the same reason discovering anything profoundly new and unknown is important. What could be more important than to learn if, how, and why aliens are colonizing the outer solar system? What if it's god we've discovered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: What if it's god we've discovered? That would be even more world shattering but OT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: Indeed I think you did, no one much less me is suggesting that UFOs are anything but unknowns. I am suggesting that the current paradigm of "nothing to see here move along" is self defeating... Where was this implied? 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: Ok, I'll agree that it proves nothing but that calls into question why you used that example... I explained why. To illustrate that I do not hold negative views towards those that believe their UFO experiences. 3 minutes ago, Moontanman said: And no matter what these people find it's never enough, they do not have the qualifications necessary to get a proper response to anything they find. This isn't true. If someone, anyone, provided an alien craft as evidence the world would be in awe. I think what you are saying is that solid undeniable proof to too high a bar and I disagree. Despite already having measured the light signature and knowing the composition of Mars scientist still bother sending equipment there to take physical measurements. Ultimately the plan is to get people to Mars at some point. The more data the better and the best data is typically tangible and multiple scientists can put hands, eyeballs, and test equipment on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: That would be even more world shattering but OT... You do realise, a dictionary is replaced by a more recent dictionary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, dimreepr said: What if it's god we've discovered? Which god? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 Just now, Ten oz said: Which god? Which Alien? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Where was this implied? This has pretty much been the stance of the Air Force and the scientific establishment nearly from the very beginning... 8 minutes ago, Ten oz said: I explained why. To illustrate that I do not hold negative views towards those that believe their UFO experiences. This isn't true. If someone, anyone, provided an alien craft as evidence the world would be in awe. I think what you are saying is that solid undeniable proof to too high a bar and I disagree. Despite already having measured the light signature and knowing the composition of Mars scientist still bother sending equipment there to take physical measurements. Ultimately the plan is to get people to Mars at some point. The more data the better and the best data is typically tangible and multiple scientists can put hands, eyeballs, and test equipment on it. Again, aliens visiting Earth would imply a technology past ours, to expect them to provide undeniable proof is a bit much. I don't honestly see how we could expect to find such proof. A crashed alien spacecraft might do it but that is like people on a isolated island seeing jet vapor trails and expecting to find physical evidence before they can even admit that the trails exist. 5 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Which Alien? Any alien will do, while I am sure that most theists would only acknowledge their god the detection of anything like a god would be earth shattering.. Edited May 11, 2018 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Any alien will do, while I am sure that most theists would only acknowledge their god the detection of anything like a god would be earth shattering.. Seems like any mirror will do, how far down this rabbit hole do you want to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 30 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Seems like any mirror will do, how far down this rabbit hole do you want to go? As far as you can dig... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 27 minutes ago, Moontanman said: This has pretty much been the stance of the Air Force and the scientific establishment nearly from the very beginning... You stated I had implied it. As for the Air Force they have investigated the issue so it isn't accurate to say they feel it isn't worth investigation. 29 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Again, aliens visiting Earth would imply a technology past ours, to expect them to provide undeniable proof is a bit much. I don't honestly see how we could expect to find such proof. A crashed alien spacecraft might do it but that is like people on a isolated island seeing jet vapor trails and expecting to find physical evidence before they can even admit that the trails exist. Peoples living in industrialized nations have technology well past that of Sentinelese tribes yet evidence in the form of plastic, glass, nylon, aluminium, and etc wash up on their shores daily. There is not rule that prohibits a less technologically advanced civilization from collecting evidence of more advance civilizations. We humans have rovers on Mars right now. If there was life on Mars that life wouldn't necessarily need to be as technologically advance as us to determine Rovers weren't made by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: As far as you can dig... Well, sometimes you, just, get dirt in your hare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: Well, sometimes you, just, get dirt in your hare. Hard to dig out of a hole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 43 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Any alien will do, while I am sure that most theists would only acknowledge their god the detection of anything like a god would be earth shattering.. If any will do than you should be please to know the NASA may already have found Alien crashed on Earth. Further illustrating the point that the issue is being investigated. Quote A NASA research team of scientists at the Johnson Space Center (JSC), Houston, TX, and at Stanford University, Palo Alto, CA, has found evidence that strongly suggests primitive life may have existed on Mars more than 3.6 billion years ago. The NASA-funded team found the first organic molecules thought to be of Martian origin; several mineral features characteristic of biological activity; and possible microscopic fossils of primitive, bacteria-like organisms inside of an ancient Martian rock that fell to Earth as a meteorite. This array of indirect evidence of past life will be reported in the August 16 issue of the journal Science, presenting the investigation to the scientific community at large for further study. https://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/snc/nasa1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Ten oz said: You stated I had implied it. As for the Air Force they have investigated the issue so it isn't accurate to say they feel it isn't worth investigation. You missed my point completely, yes has investigated and those investigations are highly suspect and definitely not scientific, the Air Force only wanted to debunk, not explain, since it's first investigation concluded that UFOs were interplanetary spacecraft and that was rejected by people because they refused to accept it, not because the study was flawed... Quote Peoples living in industrialized nations have technology well past that of Sentinelese tribes yet evidence in the form of plastic, glass, nylon, aluminium, and etc wash up on their shores daily. There is not rule that prohibits a less technologically advanced civilization from collecting evidence of more advance civilizations. We humans have rovers on Mars right now. If there was life on Mars that life wouldn't necessarily need to be as technologically advance as us to determine Rovers weren't made by them. So you expect a culture capable of interstellar travel to be dumping garbage on us? 1 minute ago, Ten oz said: If any will do than you should be please to know the NASA may already have found Alien crashed on Earth. Further illustrating the point that the issue is being investigated. You are simply being insulting now, you change from alien technology to alien bacteria as though they were equivalent, the alien fossil microbes from Mars are a far cry from a spacecraft... Not to mention the finding was 20 years ago and now thought to be simply minerals... Edited May 11, 2018 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, Moontanman said: So you expect a culture capable of interstellar travel to be dumping garbage on us? Are we not dumping stuff on other planets? 13 minutes ago, Moontanman said: You are simply being insulting now, you change from alien technology to alien bacteria as though they were equivalent, the alien fossil microbes from Mars are a far cry from a spacecraft... Not to mention the finding was 20 years ago and now thought to be simply minerals... Nope, my point was that research does happen. Bacteria is an excellent place to start by the way. Once it can be firmly established life exists or has existed someplace other than earth far more research would follow. It doesn't have to be a captured flying saucer or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Are we not dumping stuff on other planets? What does that have to do with advanced aliens giving Earth a look from time to time if they are already here? 4 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Nope, my point was that research does happen. Bacteria is an excellent place to start by the way. Once it can be firmly established life exists or has existed someplace other than earth far more research would follow. It doesn't have to be a captured flying saucer or nothing. So if we can't find any evidence for life nearby then looking for alien technology is a waste of time? I would never expect a captured UFO, I would expect a lot more than microbes on Mars before i would accept UFOs as alien spacecraft... BTW the OP is about alien technology not microbes on Mars.. Edited May 11, 2018 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 16 minutes ago, Moontanman said: What does that have to do with advanced aliens giving Earth a look from time to time if they are already here? Our activities are the only example we have of life traveling in space. It is the only tangble example that can be used. You are implying that aliens, which you can't even prove exist, definitely would not leave things behind. You simply have no reason to assume such. You don't even know if aliens exist muchless how they might behave. 20 minutes ago, Moontanman said: So if we can't find any evidence for life nearby then looking for alien technology is a waste of time? Nope, I did not say or imply that. 22 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I would never expect a captured UFO, I would expect a lot more than microbes on Mars before i would accept UFOs as alien spacecraft... BTW the OP is about alien technology not microbes on Mars.. Than what investigations do you want done. It aliens are simply too advanced to be detected what additional efforts are you calling for exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 Just now, Ten oz said: Our activities are the only example we have of life traveling in space. It is the only tangble example that can be used. You are implying that aliens, which you can't even prove exist, definitely would not leave things behind. You simply have no reason to assume such. You don't even know if aliens exist muchless how they might behave. Exactly! We have no idea what they might or might not do so using our own experiences as the standard is not conducive to investigating the phenomena... Just now, Ten oz said: Nope, I did not say or imply that. I'll not argue the point, what we have both said or implied is already here. Just now, Ten oz said: Than what investigations do you want done. It aliens are simply too advanced to be detected what additional efforts are you calling for exactly? So you are not paying attention? I have been suggesting that passively waiting for et to shit in our hand is a waste of time. We should be checking the solar system for heat anomalies, artificial alien habitats should be detectable via the waste heat they radiate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 8 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Exactly! We have no idea what they might or might not do so using our own experiences as the standard is not conducive to investigating the phenomena... There can't be a "standard" which is why it makes no sense to insist they (aliens) wouldn't leave things behind. There can be examples of what known life does and known life always leave something. That isn't to say it is a "standard" because we don't have a standard for alien. Rather, it is a simple statement of fact regarding life we do know. 12 minutes ago, Moontanman said: So you are not paying attention? I have been suggesting that passively waiting for et to shit in our hand is a waste of time. And I have been saying we aren't passively waiting. Research DOES go into the search for ET. You seem to feel it is the wrong type of research. You aren't satisfied with looking for leakage, studying microbes, putting rovers on other planets, and etc. So I will ask again, what exactly would you like to see done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ten oz said: There can't be a "standard" which is why it makes no sense to insist they (aliens) wouldn't leave things behind. There can be examples of what known life does and known life always leave something. That isn't to say it is a "standard" because we don't have a standard for alien. Rather, it is a simple statement of fact regarding life we do know. I've never said that aliens would not leave stuff behind, I just don't see how assuming they would is productive in any way... 2 minutes ago, Ten oz said: And I have been saying we aren't passively waiting. Research DOES go into the search for ET. You seem to feel it is the wrong type of research. You aren't satisfied with looking for leakage, studying microbes, putting rovers on other planets, and etc. So I will ask again, what exactly would you like to see done? Again, looking for anomalous heat signatures is the way I am suggesting. Yes, we do have to make some assumptions, the biggest is that aliens might be here. If we assume aliens would have to follow the zeitgeist of humanity then either they should be all over us or non existent. I am saying there are more probable possibilities than the UFP or the Galactic empire. Simply searching for heat signatures would be a good start and it could piggy back on other research... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 35 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I've never said that aliens would not leave stuff behind, I just don't see how assuming they would is productive in any way.. Because assuming they wouldn't means there is less to look for. If I were attempting to locate a yet discovered species of animal in the woods I would not start by assuming they don't leave tracks and only defecate in flowing rivers so that their stool dissolves and can't be found. I would start by attempting to find all the typical things I am proficient at looking for and refine my search as I went. In lieu of not knowing what they (what ever is being searched for) does or does not do one must start somewhere and look everywhere until a better course of action is determined. 44 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Again, looking for anomalous heat signatures is the way I am suggesting. Yes, we do have to make some assumptions, the biggest is that aliens might be here. If we assume aliens would have to follow the zeitgeist of humanity then either they should be all over us or non existent. I am saying there are more probable possibilities than the UFP or the Galactic empire. Simply searching for heat signatures would be a good start and it could piggy back on other research... Heat signatures where exactly, the sky? We already do have a variety of thermal radar devices scanning the skies both up from the land and down from satellites. Can you elaborate on what you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Because assuming they wouldn't means there is less to look for. If I were attempting to locate a yet discovered species of animal in the woods I would not start by assuming they don't leave tracks and only defecate in flowing rivers so that their stool dissolves and can't be found. I would start by attempting to find all the typical things I am proficient at looking for and refine my search as I went. In lieu of not knowing what they (what ever is being searched for) does or does not do one must start somewhere and look everywhere until a better course of action is determined. I am assuming nothing, I am not even assuming they exist, I am saying that so far the UAP is worthy of investigation, nothing more... 4 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Heat signatures where exactly, the sky? We already do have a variety of thermal radar devices scanning the skies both up from the land and down from satellites. Can you elaborate on what you mean? Yes, heat signatures in the outer solar system, or any part really but my hypothesis is about a alien presence in places like the Kuiper Belt or Oort cloud... We do look for IR signatures but so far everything we have launched is looking for planets. It should be possible to use the same or similar technology to look for smaller objects closer in... A fusion powered habitat would by definition give off waste heat. Even in the depths of space waste heat is a problem, the bigger the object the more of a problem hiding waste heat would be. An object radiating at a temp of 0 degrees celsius should stand out like a beacon among objects at nearly absolute zero... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, Moontanman said: am assuming nothing, I am not even assuming they exist, I am saying that so far the UAP is worthy of investigation, nothing more... It is being investigated though. You are assuming the level of investigation is inadequate. 9 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Yes, heat signatures in the outer solar system, or any part really but my hypothesis is about a alien presence in places like the Kuiper Belt or Oort cloud... We do look for IR signatures but so far everything we have launched is looking for planets. It should be possible to use the same or similar technology to look for smaller objects closer in... We do look at this. What you are saying is that we need a shift in focus? Let's not forget the first satilite went in space just 60yrs ago. Our infastructure for space exploration and research is young and much of it designed around it's own maintenance. It isn't like we don't do these things for some purposeful or negligent reason. Resources (time, money, scientific minds, etc) are limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: It is being investigated though. You are assuming the level of investigation is inadequate. I am flat out asserting the investigation is inadequate, assumptions have nothing to do with it.. 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: We do look at this. What you are saying is that we need a shift in focus? Let's not forget the first satilite went in space just 60yrs ago. Our infastructure for space exploration and research is young and much of it designed around it's own maintenance. It isn't like we don't do these things for some purposeful or negligent reason. Resources (time, money, scientific minds, etc) are limited. Investigating the possibility of aliens or alien civilizations is not something that a shift in focus is necessary for. We only look for them far away, I am suggesting we look for them close at hand. We are quite capable of doing this, we simply do not because the idea of UFOs and close by aliens is not taken seriously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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