YT2095 Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 forgive this sounding odd, but is Plutonium ever stored in lead boxes roughly 9 x 6 inches? if so what would a "safe" quantity be stored in such a box? and would the lead become contaminated eventualy (after 10+ years) without the plutonium being present any longer, would the lead become radioactive? I have a VERY GOOD reason to be asking this, so NO BULLSHIT PLEEEEEZE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevermore Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Yes, Plutomium can make lead radioactive, and the lead will stay radioactive after the plutomium is removed. As for how much plutonium is safe to store in a 9 x 6 box, I don't know. I hope this information is of some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Yes, Plutomium can make lead radioactive, and the lead will stay radioactive after the plutomium is removed. As for how much plutonium is safe to store in a 9 x 6 box, I don't know. I hope this information is of some help. How does the Plutonium make the lead radioactive? It mainly alpha decays, and that won't activate the lead. You might get a few neutrons from spontaneous fission. Pb 204, and 206-208 are stable. If you absorb a neutron in Pb-204 (1.4% abundance) it becomes Pb-205, which is an electron capture decay with an energy of 0.05 MeV and a half-life of 15 million years. (Pb-204 is itself radioactive.) If you completely activated the Pb-204 in a kg of Pb - all of it - you'd have a mCi of activity. Absorption in 206 or 207 give you stable isotopes. Absorption in Pb-208 gives you Pb-209, which beta decays with a 3-day half-life to Bi-209, which has a 2x1019 year half-life - it's not really a concern. I'd be really surprised if you could measure any increase in Pb activity, especially if you waited two weeks after the Pb was emptied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevermore Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 The question wasn't how much of the lead can you contaminate, it was can you do it. And yes, you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezarashi Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 I just wanted to say... you really need that information for something important? I'm pretty sure the US Atomic Energy Dept won't let you get your hands on any Plutonium, nor uranium for that matter. It's been taking foreign scientists years to be able to enrich, and yes, plutonium's even harder to get than uranium XD... so I was just wondering if you indeed had a nuclear facility under your basement and are selling plutonium to others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 I wouldn't worry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 thanks Swansont, the Lead case/box was my concern, and I`m releived to know it`s perfectly safe Meza, nobodys got a basement reactor! you may still sleep well at night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Meza, nobodys got a basement reactor! you may still sleep well at night Almost nobody (OK - technically it was in a shed, not his basement) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilded Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 "nor uranium for that matter." Uranium is easy to get hold of. And if you happen to visit Europe, there are certainly some areas packed with uranium slugs burrowed in the ground, just waiting to be found. (Hey that even rhymes!) And thank you swansont for mentioning David Hahn as I would've done so eventually. I also recall seeing a longer and more comprehensive article somewhere, and if you want everything you can get, buy the Radioactive Boyscout -book from Amazon. ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/037550351X/002-2686854-3502413 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed84c Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 To isolate the thorium from the ash, he purchased $1000 worth of lithium batteries and cut them in half with wire cutters this guy sounds like a nutcase. uranium slugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 this guy sounds like a nutcase. uranium slugs? not at all, he had a genuine curiosity and the intestinal fortitude to realise his ambitions, fair play to the guy! slugs AKA chunks/pellets/peices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed84c Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 hmm why would there be uranium pellets in the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 The US AED does not care one iota if someone has a sample of uranium around. It all depends on the isotope, however. Depleted uranium is of no concern since the process of turning it into Pu-239 is not something that people can do without drawing a LOT of attention to themselves. Also, the common person cannot purify Uranium from the ground into fissionable Uranium as again, the process is very costly for anybody but a government or VERY well funded group of individuals. Also, the chemicals and equipment needed to do that will cost quite a bit of money and draw a good deal of attention. Depleted Uranium, which is 99.8+% U-238 is actually used in the common marketplace. It's used as counterweights in aircraft and as a radiation shield for highly active radioisotopes. (Such as Cs-137 and Co-60 used in the medical industry. Kind of funny how a radioactive metal can effectively block radiation. I guess that tells you just how 'dangerous' U-238 really is). I have a half-gram sample of depleted Uranium and if the government wants to see it, they are free to do so. There are absolutely zero laws saying that you cannot own uranium metal. There are only laws that deal with the amount. (I.E. above a certain mass, it doesn't matter if it's depleted or natural uranium, you'll need a license for it). Now with plutonium, I'm pretty sure that in the USA it is illegal to own ANY amount of plutonium. This is probably because every isotope is capable of nuclear fission and if you were to grab a gram here and a gram there, soon you could have a nasty critical mass once you've obtained enough. I think that's the USA's stance on owning any radioactive material. If it's non-fissionable and below a certain activity level, it's legal to own. If it is fissionable then no amount is legal to own. I'm pretty sure that's how it goes. As for plutonium in a lead box, I see no problems with it. Any activity the lead picks up will be so small that it probably won't even make a noticeable increase in the background levels. If I recall properly, they used to make plutonium powered batteries for pacemakers or devices where going in and changing the batteries just wouldn't be practical. I think those are the ONLY cases where plutonium is able to be owned by the general public, and that's because the uses of it are closely watched and the ability to extract the plutonium is nill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 as seeds for a power Plant )) gedit? seeds/Plant? never mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 as seeds for a power Plant )) gedit? seeds/Plant? never mind If you believe in Karma, you're going to have a horrid day for that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 ...the common person cannot purify Uranium from the ground into fissionable[/b'] Uranium emphasis added fissile. fissionable means it is capable of undergoing fission, which U-238 is. fissile means it is capable of undergoing fission with the absorption of a slow moving neutron. U-238 requires the absorption of a fast neutron for fission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 Swansont, the Pu testing and callibration needles used in labs, are They dangerous (beyond the obvious) as these may contain those, although they SHOULD have been gotten rid of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 emphasis added fissile. fissionable means it is capable of undergoing fission' date=' which U-238 is. fissile means it is capable of undergoing fission with the absorption of a slow moving neutron. U-238 requires the absorption of a fast neutron for fission.[/quote'] Thank you for the correction. It's one of those entymological details that I had forgotten. I think that 0.0005% of U-238 undergoes Spontaneous Fission while the rest of it decays via alpha emission. So yeah, it can be 'split'. Either way, however, having neutrons around isn't a good thing. While much of it will bounce off of the U-238 (hence the reason for it being used as a deflector shield in a nuclear device), anything it does absorb will usually result in a beta decay to Np-239 and then another beta decay into Pu-239. So unless that neutron comes back from the U-238, nothing good will come of it. Still, even with those dangers, if I had to choose between 2-grams of pure uranium ore, 2-grams of depleted uranium, or 2-grams of plutonium, I'd much rather have the 2-grams of DU for safety reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 just on spec here... 2gm of these type of metals is only tiny anyway, isn`t it? a 10x10 inch cube of certain Uranium isos alone can weigh up to a ton (so I was told in school). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Yes. Uranium metal is quite dense (around 19 g/cc), so a 10"x10"x10" cube would weigh about 688 pounds. So it's not quite a ton, but it's still a LOT of weight. Still, 2 grams of plutonium is a LOT since Pu has some pretty high energy decomposition. Uranium's gamma radiation isn't all too high of an energy, so on a gram per gram basis it's not as 'hot' as plutonium is. Plutonium is just really nasty stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Here's a neat little story about Plutonium. Has some neat pictures. That lovely Pu! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 hey, nice link! I`ll be sure to read that one thouroughly when I have more time just on spec, what`s the safe exposure time for an arms length distance with weapons grade Pu? I ask this because anything less than that grade but treated with the same respect seems sensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdurg Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 hey' date=' nice link! I`ll be sure to read that one thouroughly when I have more time just on spec, what`s the safe exposure time for an arms length distance with weapons grade Pu? I ask this because anything less than that grade but treated with the same respect seems sensible.[/quote'] Heh. As close to zero as possible. Really, it's not all too nasty, but it does emit some high energy gamma rays upon decay and those aren't very fun at all. At most, I'd say that you should expose yourself to it as little as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmalluck Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Lets not forget that Plutonium can easily be rendered into a pyrohoric metal. Let it sit in the air long enough and it'll start making plutonium hydride, a fun little pyrohoric substance. You'd be very unhappy if your sample decided to spontanusly combust, melt through your box, and release lots of fun oxides into the air. Uranium will also burn in air, but it has to be given some activation energy. It's kinda like magnesium in that sence. The army loves making armor percing rounds out of it because it's heavy, hard, and burns on impact. The oxide dust it produces can also be very hazardous. It builds up in your kidneys and can give you all kinds of troubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 fantastic, I feel SOoooo much better Now! /sacasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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