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Can, and does God change?


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Can, and does God change?

 

Many seem to think that when scripture says that God is immortal and perfect, it means that God never changes his mind on anything and that his perfection is complete.

 

They use the following basic definition.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perfect

 

Scripture seems to contradict this definition. It shows a N T Jesus that must learn and an O T God who changes thanks to repenting.

 

In the real world, all things seem to evolve.

 

Is God a never changing stagnant pool of information or does he evolve the same as all other life?

 

If he was perfect and complete for millennia in the beginning, why would he suddenly feel a new urge to create and self glorify himself with the love of insignificant creations?

 

Where did his needs for adoration, belief, and obedience from, what to him, would be less than what an amoeba is to us?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdpcGPPoawo&feature=related

 

Further, if his intent was to create many followers, why does scripture show more failed creations than successful ones?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3LNL6wKhXA

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

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If he was perfect and complete for millennia in the beginning, why would he suddenly feel a new urge to create and self glorify himself with the love of insignificant creations?

 

Where did his needs for adoration, belief, and obedience from, what to him, would be less than what an amoeba is to us?

God is personification of strength, goodness, creative power, etc. When people say things like this, it has the effect of alienating people from embracing these aspects of human potential. A truly strong, good, creatively powerful person wants to see these positive attributes in others as well. They are not out to dominate and belittle others because they don't need to be happy. People who regard others as insignificant amoebas are usually those who feel weak, dominated, cynical regarding goodness and creativity, and/or that power is inherently dangerous and corrupting. Those are the people that want to regard themselves and others as insignificant and small because they fear power and the responsibility that comes with it.

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Can, and does God change?

 

Scripture seems to contradict this definition. It shows a N T Jesus that must learn and an O T God who changes thanks to repenting.

 

I think He does. I just don't see how anything static could be omnipotent.

 

Jesus was human as well. He had to learn. Otherwise, his sacrifice would have meant nothing.

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God is personification of strength, goodness, creative power, etc. When people say things like this, it has the effect of alienating people from embracing these aspects of human potential. A truly strong, good, creatively powerful person wants to see these positive attributes in others as well. They are not out to dominate and belittle others because they don't need to be happy. People who regard others as insignificant amoebas are usually those who feel weak, dominated, cynical regarding goodness and creativity, and/or that power is inherently dangerous and corrupting. Those are the people that want to regard themselves and others as insignificant and small because they fear power and the responsibility that comes with it.

 

I agree.

 

People versus sheeple.

 

Sheeple us a scapegoat for their responsibilities, while people step up to their own responsibilities.

 

Regards

DL

 

I think He does. I just don't see how anything static could be omnipotent.

 

So do I but just not the same God you follow.

 

If you follow your God and he is changing and we are supposed to emulate his according to scripture, how do you know what aspects of yourself you need to change and how do you know what to change to?

 

He has not really given us any direct advise for some time now.

 

Jesus was human as well. He had to learn. Otherwise, his sacrifice would have meant nothing.

 

I prefer volcanoes and virgins. So does God. Much more tender.

 

Do you think it moral to try to profit from the murder of an innocent man?

 

 

 

Regards

DL

 

I dont think god can change, only our perception of it, hence why now i call god "it" rather than "him" i have lost some of my ignorance but not all.

 

That would make Jesus just as much of a genocidal maniac as his father and we just do not perceive him that way.

 

Is that what you are saying?

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

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I just don't see how anything static could be omnipotent.

Assuming I'm not making any logical errors, I see just that. Will see if I can put it into words.

 

If we assume an omnipotent being, since it would know the future in every sense, wouldn't it be static in the sense that it knows what's going to happen, and it knows its own reaction to whatever is to happen? So, since I guess this deity would encompass all of time and space, is it wrong to look at it as being locked in its own space-time, thus static?

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God, as I work on answering to your question, is atomic particles and the forces which manifest reality as we know it. This is the Tao of all things, and as the water we drink once passed through a living dinosaur, so all things come from the Tao and return to the Tao. All that ever was, or will be, is in the beginning, and change is constant. Kind of like a Kaleidoscope I think. All the pieces are there but the picture is always changing.

 

I don't experience God, so I do not know what is so for God, but I experience me and the concept of perfection is an interesting one. I am the perfect me, and I don't know how much I can change and not be me? Compared to others, I may fall short of perfection, but that does not change the fact that I am the perfect me. My body sure is far from perfection, and my brain does not work nearly as well as I wish did, and what I know is extremely limited. How I perceive life has changed a lot over the years. Yet I am and always have been the perfect me. Like no matter how faulted we are, can anything or anyone else be a more perfect one of a kind?

 

Hum, come to think of it. What would happen to the fabric of the universe if there were no Satan? Could there be a more perfect Satan? How much a part of God is Satan? If God creates all things, what separates God's creation from God? Oh dear, what if God is scizophrenic, and both himself and Satan? Sorry if this seems off topic, but a belief in Satan is very much a part of our belief in God, so it seems necessary to add to Satan to this discussion. Or to clarify there is a God, but no Satan, because we are talking about belief system, right?

 

Because we do not directly experience God, we can only talk about belief systems, not about God. Included in the belief system of God is Satan, angels and demons, as well as human nature. When we rely on the holy bible for a definition of God, we are also saying we are born into sin, and like the angels are fallen and disconnected with God, and in need of being reconnected with God. We have associated sin with evil and with Satan and with darkness and death.

 

Assuming I'm not making any logical errors, I see just that. Will see if I can put it into words.

 

If we assume an omnipotent being, since it would know the future in every sense, wouldn't it be static in the sense that it knows what's going to happen, and it knows its own reaction to whatever is to happen? So, since I guess this deity would encompass all of time and space, is it wrong to look at it as being locked in its own space-time, thus static?

 

We can know, given the right stimulus a neutron will fly through the air, but we can not know which one. Might I suggest the same is so for human souls and God. God knows the beginning and knows the end result, but may not know which human souls will go through the right slit and or the left slit, or which ones will do nothing at all.

Edited by Athena
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Athena

 

What you and I are, I call evolving perfection.

The U S use of perfection says that it can go to a more perfect state. See the U S constitution.

 

Most people do not comprehend what we seem to agree on.

 

I sometimes try to get them to opine on this being truth or cynicism but few reply.

 

It may be too complex for some to dither out. That or you and I are wrong but I tend to never be wrong. LOL.

 

Candide

 

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

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Athena

 

What you and I are, I call evolving perfection.

The U S use of perfection says that it can go to a more perfect state. See the U S constitution.

 

Most people do not comprehend what we seem to agree on.

 

I sometimes try to get them to opine on this being truth or cynicism but few reply.

 

It may be too complex for some to dither out. That or you and I are wrong but I tend to never be wrong. LOL.

 

Candide

 

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

:lol: It is nice to begin the day with a laugh and big smile on my face.

 

It was once the intent of the citizens of the US to bring heaven to earth, and I don't think New York or LA are many people's idea of heaven. However, with our female mayor, I think Eugene, Oregon is making a good effort to bring heaven to earth. The nature rehab projects have brought back more birds and more varieties of birds and plant life.

 

But we perhaps need to be aware of the human tendency to understand perfection from our human point of view. Much thinking, from the most primitive to the most technological, tends to think that everything in the universe exist for our benefit. This has been counterbalanced to some degree by the tribes who think of humans as being brothers and sister to all other animals. Like it isn't all here just for us, but we shared it all with other souls. How does that play into your thoughts of perfection?

 

And of God, what is a perfect God? I like Hindu concepts. Out of the one came the many. I do not think the East Indian concept of perfection would be the same as the western concept of perfection. I think our concerns for perfection make us type A personalities. Can we love a God with all our hearts, who is not a perfect God? If God is all things, would this not include imperfection? And back to what is a perfect God?

 

Hum, interesting how this line of thinking tweaks my thoughts. Perhaps A tripolation is the best to answer. Was Jesus born perfect? What was the need for him to be born? Why didn't he just come to us as an all powerful angel? Must a God be unchangeable, or forever metamorphising? Can a spiritual God who can not experience life have knowing? What is knowledge without experience?

 

How about this, matter is constantly changing. Is God manifest in matter or separate from it?

Edited by Athena
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Hum, interesting how this line of thinking tweaks my thoughts. Perhaps A tripolation is the best to answer. Was Jesus born perfect? What was the need for him to be born? Why didn't he just come to us as an all powerful angel? Must a God be unchangeable, or forever metamorphising? Can a spiritual God who can not experience life have knowing? What is knowledge without experience?

 

How about this, matter is constantly changing. Is God manifest in matter or separate from it?

 

Jesus was born human. Jesus was born with the capacity to make mistakes. I'm not like most Christians in that I think he was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. That's stupid in my opinion. That's what makes Him so special. He maintained perfection throughout his life, never sinning. If He had been an all-powerful Angel, His sacrifice would have meant nothing. He wouldn't have been human. How could He have been tempted with sin as an omnipotent entity?

 

Gos IS everything in the universe. An all-encompassing being. Therefore, it seems to me that while such a thing may be static in its existence, it is forever dynamic in its actions.

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Athena

 

Did I misunderstand your view?

 

Perhaps if you would opine on the Candide position, as to truth or cynicism, I would have a better idea.

 

Regards

DL

 

Jesus was born human. Jesus was born with the capacity to make mistakes. I'm not like most Christians in that I think he was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. That's stupid in my opinion. That's what makes Him so special. He maintained perfection throughout his life, never sinning. If He had been an all-powerful Angel, His sacrifice would have meant nothing. He wouldn't have been human. How could He have been tempted with sin as an omnipotent entity?

 

Gos IS everything in the universe. An all-encompassing being. Therefore, it seems to me that while such a thing may be static in its existence, it is forever dynamic in its actions.

 

Hebrews 5:8

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

 

 

 

If Jesus had to learn obedience, that would mean he disobeyed.

 

Is disobedience then perfect?

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

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If Jesus had to learn obedience, that would mean he disobeyed.

 

Is disobedience then perfect?

 

You're taking it out of context. That chapter is speaking of how Jesus did not seek to become a High Priest. And how God told him that even though He is the son of God, he must still be submissive to God, for God is greater than Jesus in some aspects. He must be obedient to God, and do all things for Him.

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Jesus was born human. Jesus was born with the capacity to make mistakes. I'm not like most Christians in that I think he was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. That's stupid in my opinion. That's what makes Him so special. He maintained perfection throughout his life, never sinning. If He had been an all-powerful Angel, His sacrifice would have meant nothing. He wouldn't have been human. How could He have been tempted with sin as an omnipotent entity?

 

Gos IS everything in the universe. An all-encompassing being. Therefore, it seems to me that while such a thing may be static in its existence, it is forever dynamic in its actions.

 

Oh dear, now there are more questions to ask.

 

All human beings are influenced by their parents and peers. Was Jesus different? Would Jesus have been just the same no matter who his parents were and who his peers were? Like we are talking about him learning, right, and it is the parents who are the first teachers. Might he have learned differently if he had different parents?

 

What was different about Jesus that made it possible for him to remain perfect, and if he were different in this way, why not manifest him as an angel? Satan was an angel and didn't remain perfect, right? Angels can screw up, so why was a human sacrifice needed? I think we can think of this human sacrifice thing in many ways, so I ask the question again, why was a human sacrifice necessary? What did a human sacrifice change in the universe?

 

Athena

 

Did I misunderstand your view?

 

Perhaps if you would opine on the Candide position, as to truth or cynicism, I would have a better idea.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

 

Hebrews 5:8

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

 

 

 

If Jesus had to learn obedience, that would mean he disobeyed.

 

Is disobedience then perfect?

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

I guess there was a disconnect, but I do not understand how that happened? I do not know the Candide position nor what that has to do with the topic.

 

The question about Jesus being disobedient is interesting. Who or what could he have disobeyed at age 2, age 8, age 14, age 20, age 30? Who or want corrected him and how?

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You're taking it out of context.

 

I get that B S line a lot. It is always wrong.

 

That chapter is speaking of how Jesus did not seek to become a High Priest. And how God told him that even though He is the son of God, he must still be submissive to God, for God is greater than Jesus in some aspects. He must be obedient to God, and do all things for Him.

 

If all three heads of the trinity are not equal then how can it be one God?

 

 

can one head keep a secret from the other heads? No one knows the time of the end but the father.

 

As to Jesus being in submission to the father, only through me, Jesus' words, say that he is above the father.

 

 

 

Regards

 

DL

 

Athena

 

Scripture is not clear on who Jesus disobeyed. Perhaps it was for for his temper tantrum at the temple.

There are some ancient books that did not make it into the Bible that speaks of baby and chid Jesus being a real little prick but I did not plan on quoting these here.

For the purpose of this O P all I have is that quote and if we assume that Jesus dies a good man, then his---no one is good but the father says that between the two episodes, Jesus learned to be good. After all, he was the only perfect sacrifice according to dogma.

 

As to the Candid thing, we were discussing your perfection and I thought you had a good enough mind to be able to confirm or deny the notion that things are as perfect as they could possibly be at any given point in time. Or as they say it, this is the best of all possible worlds.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

Edited by Greatest I am
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You really need to learn how to use the quote feature correctly.

 

 

If all three heads of the trinity are not equal then how can it be one God?

 

Jesus is a human manifestation of an omnipotent God. The Holy Spirit is more or less something that resides in every human being. A part of God. God is God.

 

As to Jesus being in submission to the father, only through me, Jesus' words, say that he is above the father.

 

No. He doesn't.

 

 

John 14:28 - "You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

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I am not sure of the value of quoting from a book. There are several holy books, and how do we decide which one is God's word and which ones are not? Of course the Christian bible focuses on Jesus, but really is this good story telling or something else? The object is to think things through. Surely Jesus was to obey his mother and father, and obey God, but did he get special messages from God that we don't get? Did he rely in what is written in the Torah and quote it as though it could not be questioned, because it is God's truth? Exactly how did he know God's truth?

 

Might this divine being appear as Krishna to the natives of India, and as a Buddha to people in the east, and appear in the Americas giving the Inca and Aztecs and others of the America Gods knowledge?

Edited by Athena
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I think I'll go with the volcanoes and virgins on this one, who says the mainstream idea of God is correct, which God is the OP talking about? Thor? Odin? Zeus? Diana? The Great Spirit? Oak trees? I mean really how can you really discuss the nature of God with out knowing who's God is really God? The assumption is far bigger than the actual question and therefore the question becomes loaded with nothing but emotional posturing...

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I am not sure of the value of quoting from a book. There are several holy books, and how do we decide which one is God's word and which ones are not?

 

So we're supposed to talk about God without pretty much the only thing that religion has going for it? I'm fairly certain that Greatest I Am is referencing the Judeo-Christian God. The one who is most widely believed at this current point in time. I don't think anyone thinks that Thor or Zeus is around, but many people do believe in God.

 

I understand the evidence levels are the same for all of them. But that's not the question the OP is trying to talk about, and I think your response is off-topic.

 

The assumption is far bigger than the actual question and therefore the question becomes loaded with nothing but emotional posturing...

 

Again, if you're not comfortable with inherent assumptions made about an omnipotent, illogical-beyond-all-belief-deity, then maybe you should just ignore the religion forum. There are a lot of assumptions made here. The ones you challenge are the ones that do not make sense theologically, or are disproven using scripture. Not things like this.

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So we're supposed to talk about God without pretty much the only thing that religion has going for it? I'm fairly certain that Greatest I Am is referencing the Judeo-Christian God. The one who is most widely believed at this current point in time. I don't think anyone thinks that Thor or Zeus is around, but many people do believe in God.

 

I understand the evidence levels are the same for all of them. But that's not the question the OP is trying to talk about, and I think your response is off-topic.

 

 

 

Again, if you're not comfortable with inherent assumptions made about an omnipotent, illogical-beyond-all-belief-deity, then maybe you should just ignore the religion forum. There are a lot of assumptions made here. The ones you challenge are the ones that do not make sense theologically, or are disproven using scripture. Not things like this.

 

 

Again you are making assumptions, many people on this planet, and we are talking about literally billions of people, do not worship or give any credence to the judeao Christian god what so ever, BTW A Tripolation, maybe you should be a moderator before you suggest I cannot post in any forum... maybe you should come down off that judeo Christian god horse you are riding and see this is the religion forum not the judeo Christian god forum...

Edited by Moontanman
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Again you are making assumptions, many people on this planet, and we are talking about literally billions of people, do not worship or give any credence to the judeao Christian god what so ever, BTW A Tripolation, maybe you should be a moderator before you suggest I cannot post in any forum...

 

The majority of religious believers do. And it's quite obvious that Greatest I Am was speaking of the God of Abraham. Why complicate with semantics that we can't answer the question he asked because there are different Gods? We'll never be able to objectively define God. So let's just answer the question based on what God he was almost certainly speaking of. And I base this on all of his previous posts, which were about the Christian God.

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The majority of religious believers do. And it's quite obvious that Greatest I Am was speaking of the God of Abraham. Why complicate with semantics that we can't answer the question he asked because there are different Gods? We'll never be able to objectively define God. So let's just answer the question based on what God he was almost certainly speaking of. And I base this on all of his previous posts, which were about the Christian God.

 

 

The OP opened the discussion to other "gods" when he mentioned virgins and volcanoes, the very idea that you actually know that the Christian god is real and the others are not is nothing but hubris on your part. Numbers of believers does not equal truth my friend...

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The OP opened the discussion to other "gods" when he mentioned virgins and volcanoes, the very idea that you actually know that the Christian god is real and the others are not is nothing but hubris on your part. Numbers of believers does not equal truth my friend...

 

1. He wasn't speaking of other "gods". He was making a point about sacrifices.

 

2. I don't know that the Christian God is real. You assumed that I do.

 

3. Now you're discussing religious truth, which is nigh impossible to find, when just a few posts before you said that no one should bother answering since it will just be "emotional posturing"? How do you possibly make those two align?

 

What was different about Jesus that made it possible for him to remain perfect, and if he were different in this way, why not manifest him as an angel? Satan was an angel and didn't remain perfect, right? Angels can screw up, so why was a human sacrifice needed? I think we can think of this human sacrifice thing in many ways, so I ask the question again, why was a human sacrifice necessary? What did a human sacrifice change in the universe?

 

Because He was a human projection of God, and God is perfect. A perfect human sacrifice was needed because it was humanity that had sinned. No other.

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You really need to learn how to use the quote feature correctly.

 

 

 

 

Jesus is a human manifestation of an omnipotent God. The Holy Spirit is more or less something that resides in every human being. A part of God. God is God.

 

 

 

No. He doesn't.

 

 

John 14:28 - "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

 

 

Three heads all un-equal. Four if you count the human Jesus.

 

You are making stuff up as you go.

 

Regards

DL

 

I am not sure of the value of quoting from a book. There are several holy books, and how do we decide which one is God's word and which ones are not? Of course the Christian bible focuses on Jesus, but really is this good story telling or something else? The object is to think things through. Surely Jesus was to obey his mother and father, and obey God, but did he get special messages from God that we don't get? Did he rely in what is written in the Torah and quote it as though it could not be questioned, because it is God's truth? Exactly how did he know God's truth?

 

Might this divine being appear as Krishna to the natives of India, and as a Buddha to people in the east, and appear in the Americas giving the Inca and Aztecs and others of the America Gods knowledge?

 

 

Foolishness must be quoted in order to discredit it.

 

Christians here should take the advise of this Jew and ask Jews how to interpret the book that they plagiarized.

 

 

 

 

Regards

DL

 

==============================

 

Reprint from the O P

 

"Scripture seems to contradict this definition. It shows a N T Jesus that must learn and an O T God who changes thanks to repenting."

 

 

Not to be crude but---------what other fucking holy book other than the Bible has a N T and O T?

 

Regards

DL

Edited by Greatest I am
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1. He wasn't speaking of other "gods". He was making a point about sacrifices.

 

Lets let the op tell us what he meant

 

 

2. I don't know that the Christian God is real. You assumed that I do.

 

You were making that assumption in your posts.

 

3. Now you're discussing religious truth, which is nigh impossible to find, when just a few posts before you said that no one should bother answering since it will just be "emotional posturing"? How do you possibly make those two align?

 

No I am quite sure I didn't say there was no reason to bother answering but to answer you have to make some invalid assumptions.

 

Because He was a human projection of God, and God is perfect. A perfect human sacrifice was needed because it was humanity that had sinned. No other.

 

There are, as I have pointed out, other schools of thought about god.... even within the Judeo Christian network... You assumption that no other god was relevant and that numbers decided what was real is also invalid...

Edited by Moontanman
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