magic or not

[hemantc007]

Does any one in this community believe in magic.....................!

[Klaynos]

Magic, the art of deception?

[hemantc007]

THEN what about miracle ..?

[Sisyphus]

Define "magic" and "miracle" and I'll give you an answer.

[hemantc007]

i guess both have almost the same meaning,

according to me i mean by miracle is "those things or event which are out of science (which science can not explain as some people think) or the work of the god .'

 

and magic means "only those events which is explainable or out of science or stuff like that "

 

now your turn ......!!!1

[ydoaPs]

Which god?

[hemantc007]

There is another way to answer

give you defination , with reason and answer it

if any.........

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Which god?

what do you mean ?

plz explain your question...........!!

[Sisyphus]

"Science cannot explain?" What does that mean? Before we knew what electricity was, science couldn't explain lightning. Was it magic then, and not magic now?

 

Also, I agree with ydoaps. "The work of the god" means nothing to me, unless you explain what you mean by the word "god," and what kind of work you're talking about.

 

(Not trying to be difficult, just showing some problems with the question.)

[hemantc007]

i mean to say there are many people ,they think that science can't explain many things like the origin of life ( science have no 100% sure answer)

as you mentioned an example , in that i want to ask is that today , many things can not be explained by science , .......

like for example people say that holy bath cure all or some disease , and the say it is the work of god

 

"god" means to me as certein someone or thing that has created world ,"god" difination is all those holy book says like bible , gita, kuran ,ect.(sorry if spell mistake )

 

(Not trying to be difficult)

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my answer is surely " NO "

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WE HAVE AN " INDRA GANDHI AWARD "IN OUR COUNTRY , FOR PERSON WHO WILL BE ABLE TO DO MAGIC . he /she will be rewarded with Rs.500000..........

[The Clairvoyant]

Black magic or witchcraft is an interesting subject matter to bring into this thread.

 

I've never believed in this stuff myself, but the thought of going to some sort of ritual would scare me to death. Why's that ?

 

Atheists don't believe in God but when I ask some of them if they would pray if a loved one was dying they nearly always answer 'yes'. So not an atheist then ? Why's that ?

 

Lot's of things are difficult to explain. Not sure if we can called it magic or a miracle. Just 'unexplained'.

[AzurePhoenix]

i mean to say there are many people ,they think that science can't explain many things like the origin of life ( science have no 100% sure answer) as you mentioned an example , in that i want to ask is that today , many things can not be explained by science , .......

like for example people say that holy bath cure all or some disease , and the say it is the work of god

having not yet explained something to perfect satisfaction does not mean "can not" explain, and looking to god to answer those questions is just the God of the Gaps Fallacy, or the equally fallacious Argument from Personal Incredulity, and falling on God to fill those in can accomplish nothing but hold people back from finding the real answers.

 

As for "holy baths" or other faith cures, it's widely considered just a matter of the placebo effect combined with the disease being something they mightve gotten over anyway. I doubt many scientists are mystified by such things. In certain regions the opposite holds true; local witch men or whatever will curse someone, and their health will rapidly diminish and they might even die. Local doctors have learned to trick the "curse victim" into believing they've banished the curse and usually the victim perks right up.

[Klaynos]

i mean to say there are many people ,they think that science can't explain many things like the origin of life ( science have no 100% sure answer)

as you mentioned an example , in that i want to ask is that today , many things can not be explained by science , .......

like for example people say that holy bath cure all or some disease , and the say it is the work of god

 

The first thing those people would need to present is evidence... and then we can go about explaining it with science. In my opinion everything can be explained with science eventually, we just might not be able to do it right now...

[hemantc007]

Black magic or witchcraft is an interesting subject matter to bring into this thread.

 

I've never believed in this stuff myself, but the thought of going to some sort of ritual would scare me to death. Why's that ?

 

Atheists don't believe in God but when I ask some of them if they would pray if a loved one was dying they nearly always answer 'yes'. So not an atheist then ? Why's that ?

 

Lot's of things are difficult to explain. Not sure if we can called it magic or a miracle. Just 'unexplained'.

I am an atheists , but i would not act the way "someone" did as you said.

i do not believe in either of them, because has answer to every thing ,

or rather every thing is consider as science in my defination of "science"

[The Clairvoyant]

I am an atheists , but i would not act the way "someone" did as you said.

i do not believe in either of them, because has answer to every thing ,

or rather every thing is consider as science in my defination of "science"

 

 

I didn't say 'someone', I said 'some of them'. A few of my friends, my uncle, my former brother-in-law, all said they were atheists, but would pray for a loved one (kids to be more specific) if they were seriously ill.

 

I don't get what you mean in your post. Can you make it clearer for me ? Cheers

[mooeypoo]

You both should try to steer clear of generalizations. I am not going to pray for anyone no matter how ill they are because I don't believe that will help. Whatever point was attempted by saying "some atheists do" was just turned moot..

 

I would also have no problem whatsoever doing any sort of "wiccan" ritual. If the settings are right it might scare me but not because of the fact I'm doing a ritual. Maybe because of the dark and the occasional "boo" and creep-the-heck-out-of-you effects those tend to have (I've been present in some).

 

Human beings have some weird quirks in us; we tend to see shapes in the dark that aren't there (might have to do with our EXTREMELY poor eyesight and poor night vision), we have an innate tendency to see patterns where those don't exist, and we scare easily.

 

My first instinct when I see something moving in my room at night is to clutch my blanket and cover myself. That's instinctive. When I get over it, though, my rationality returns and I spend a bit more time checking it out. Most times it was nothing more than a random shade dancing around -- does that make monsters real? no. It makes my instinctive reactions real, and it makes the fact humans need to WORK THEIR MINDS beyond their quirks to get to the truth real.

 

 

Claims are measured by their validity and teh validity of their evidence, not by how spooked they make us feel or by the possible faint-hearted irrational moment some atheists (and non atheists, really) might have.

 

~moo

[tar]

Hermantc007,

 

"Magic or not?"

 

No magic. The thing about reality is that everything fits together. Everything has its causes and it consequences. It all has to add up, the consequences all have to play out. The laws of nature don't change because we want them to, or wish or pray them to. Science's job is to figure out the laws and the relationships and hence find ways to use the laws of nature to our advantage.

 

On the other hand, we have dreams and magic, and superstitions, and imagination which follow internal human rules, and need not fit together, need not have consequences. In dreams we can fly, walk on water, open the bathroom door and step out on the stage of the Metropolitian Opera house and open clouds with a zipper and find our lost teddy bear inside. And the human mind can convince itself that impossible things are true. But the test of any idea of how reality is, is not valid, when performed in the human mind. There anything is possible, and things need not fit together, they need not touch all the bases, they need not work. The test is only valid if it is performed in reality, where everything HAS to fit together. That is why scientists ask for evidence. Not the kind your logic or your imagination provides. "Show me an example of magic happening in reality", where EVERYTHING fits together, and ALL the rules HAVE to be followed. If you can show me such a thing, then it isn't magic, is it? Its real.

 

Not that reality does not exhibit strange and wonder combinations, and emergent properties. But when we uncover something in reality we are sure to find with it, a mechanism, a set of rules by which real things combine and interact in real ways, following all the laws of nature.

 

No magic. Not in reality. Only in our dreams, and imagination.

 

Regards, TAR

[hemantc007]

I didn't say 'someone', I said 'some of them'. A few of my friends, my uncle, my former brother-in-law, all said they were atheists, but would pray for a loved one (kids to be more specific) if they were seriously ill.

 

I don't get what you mean in your post. Can you make it clearer for me ? Cheers

i meant that i think that if we try hard , we can explain all through science , in othere word I define science as "everything".

I bet you that at the extriems condition also i will not prey to god.

it is all nonsense , waste of time to me.

[The Clairvoyant]

You both should try to steer clear of generalizations.

 

It's not a generalisation the question is very specific. Ask a self proclaimed atheist 'Would you pray if a loved one was seriously ill' ?

 

I am not going to pray for anyone no matter how ill they are because I don't believe that will help.

 

But it might. So what have you got to lose ? Surely, Science is about having an open mind ? It hasn't been proven that there isn't a God. So why not go for it ? Why would you be so against the idea ? Would it pain you so much to think that you asked for help and went against your beliefs ?

 

Claims are measured by their validity and teh validity of their evidence

 

And time surely ? I'm sure that in the time of Jesus and in the years following his death the existence of God was proven. However, we now seem to demand more proof rather than just accepting the proof from the past.

 

If it was all made up, then someone from the distant past is the greatest fiction writer of all time. That's not possible is it ? The writers of today are much more intelligent !

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i meant that i think that if we try hard , we can explain all through science.

 

Maybe then, we will prove the existence of God through Science, rather than the non-existence of God ?

 

iI bet you that at the extriems condition also i will not prey to god.

it is all nonsense , waste of time to me.

 

Asking for help takes about 30 seconds maybe. So not really wasting your time. It's also not wasting time if (by some miracle) it did help the person.

 

it is all nonsense

 

You can't prove that. So why not keep an open mind ? You haven't got nothing to lose have you ?

[iNow]

It's not a generalisation the question is very specific. Ask a self proclaimed atheist 'Would you pray if a loved one was seriously ill' ?

I am a self-proclaimed atheist, and the answer is an unequivocal, No, I would NOT pray if someone I loved was seriously ill. I would wish them well. I would hope for a speedy recovery. I would do what I could to ease their suffering and help them heal, but praying is pointless.

 

In case you're curious, I also don't expect money when I put a tooth under the pillow after it falls out, nor do I expect a fat guy in a red suit to crawl down my chimney at the end of December... Just in case there was any confusion there...

 

 

 

But it might. So what have you got to lose ? Surely, Science is about having an open mind ? It hasn't been proven that there isn't a God. So why not go for it ?

And it hasn't been proven the the farts of pink unicorns don't cause erections in leprechauns, either. That sure isn't a very solid foundation from which you're working there, chief.

 

Also, science and open minds are another area where you could be corrected on your choice of language. It's more about finding models which accurately describe nature/reality, and testing those models... improving them continuously and discarding those ideas which don't work or which are unuseful. It's important to be open to new ideas, but being so open minded that your brains fall out is counter productive in science.

 

 

I'm sure that in the time of Jesus and in the years following his death the existence of God was proven.

Of course, you are. Now... Please do explain for all of us... Why can't you share that proof of the existence of god now... you know... now that people are asking for you to share it?

 

These beliefs you espouse are just mind cancer.

 

 

 

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Edited August 23, 2009 by iNow

[The Clairvoyant]

I am a self-proclaimed atheist, and the answer is an unequivocal, No, I would NOT pray if someone I loved was seriously ill. I would wish them well. I would hope for a speedy recovery. I would do what I could to ease their suffering and help them heal, but praying is pointless.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it isn't pointless ?

 

In case you're curious, I also don't expect money when I put a tooth under the pillow after it falls out, nor do I expect a fat guy in a red suit to crawl down my chimney at the end of December... Just in case there was any confusion there...

 

I wasn't curious, so there isn't any confusion there. Seems, a bit of a waste of typing time really. What 30 seconds, to think of something completely pointless to type ? That's the same time it would take to pray for the health of a loved one !

 

And it hasn't been proven the the farts of pink unicorns cause erections in leprechauns, either. That sure isn't a very solid foundation from which you're working there, chief

 

The 'farts of pink unicorns causing erections in leprechauns' is a great title for a book ! It was also never passed down and believed by 75% of the Earths population for the last 2000 years

 

It's important to be open to new ideas, but being so open minded that your brains fall out is counter productive in science.

 

Maybe you're just wrong there. Some of the open-mindedness back in the day was rather wacky ! The Earth is round !

 

Please do explain for all of us... Why can't you share that proof of the existence of god now... you know... now that people are asking for you to share it?

 

I never said I could prove it. What I said was that Science hasn't proved it

 

These beliefs you espouse are just mind cancer.

 

Does getting involved in Science mean that you can't believe in God ?

[ydoaPs]

Maybe, just maybe, it isn't pointless ?

 

The studies say it is.

[iNow]

Maybe, just maybe, [praying] isn't pointless ?

Well, if it makes you feel better to do it, then have at it. What I'm suggesting is that there is no evidence whatsoever of even most insignificant and minimal efficacy.

 

 

Now, in the meantime, you should check this out:

 

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm

Does God answer prayers? According to believers, the answer is certainly yes.

 

 

It is quite possible to prove/disprove, and someone is looking for volunteers to take part in such an experiment:

 

http://sunnyskeptic.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/sunnys-great-amputee-experiment-volunteers/

 

Why Won’t God Heal Amputees has some great information and video that will tell you why god is imaginary. It’s pretty fun and there are good points.

 

In spite of all of this information, I was told today on the Minnesota Atheists forum that god actually does heal amputees, and thus I have offered up a challenge to that person and anyone else who agrees with him or her to take part in my Great Amputee Experiment.

 

If you are a christian, and would like to prove that god does in fact heal amputees, sign up here, and I’ll help you out with that. I will admit, I don’t have any practice cutting limbs off of people, but I’m sure I could figure something out to assist. Then I’ll pour you a cup of coffee, we’ll sit together, and just wait for them to grow back in, no worries.

[tar]

Clairvoyant,

 

Does getting involved in Science mean that you can't believe in God ?

 

I guess it depends on what your definition of God is.

 

Is your God figurative or literal, for instance.

 

My personal test for whether or not a person's God is real or imagined, is whether or not the attributes of that God apply to everybody and everything, regardless of people's beliefs or imagined conditions.

 

If the God you pray to requires that you believe in him/her/it, inorder for him/her/it to answer your prayer, then your belief is the deciding factor, in which case, its an imagined God to which you pray. A real god, on the other hand, would have a consistent response, regardless of your beliefs.

 

Although this does not discount the ability of prayer to affect reality. If you pray, your own will and attention is focused on determining a certain outcome. Your prayer will affect your own actions and body chemistry, and probably the actions and body chemistry of those around you. Everyone may act in the appropriate ways to guide the situation toward your desired outcome. So your 30 second prayer could certainly make a difference. But it's your will that would have been done.

 

Regards, TAR

[padren]

Maybe, just maybe, it isn't pointless ?

What merits does praying provide over the myriad of other options? Why not sacrifice a goat? Why not fast? Why wouldn't wearing blue help? Maybe, just maybe wearing blue would help your sick loved one - you don't know that it wouldn't. Likewise, maybe wearing red is what it takes. Maybe there is a God, and he hates it when people pray to him and he will hurt your loved one!

 

After all, you ask one person, and they tell you to pray to the Virgin Mary, you ask another, they tell you to pray to Jesus and that praying to Mary is a sin!

 

There are no arguments that favor prayer as a means of healing someone that are any better than when used to suggest that guessing leprechauns names can help someone heal - unless of course you include logical fallacies.

 

I challenge you to come up with a single reason why prayer is better than collecting lint as a means of helping someone heal that is not based on a fallacy. By fallacies, I mean appeal to authority, hearsay, appeal to the majority, failure to prove the negative, etc etc.

 

Would you take that challenge?

 

 

The 'farts of pink unicorns causing erections in leprechauns' is a great title for a book ! It was also never passed down and believed by 75% of the Earths population for the last 2000 years

 

Logical fallacy. The figure you provide is suspect too, but I don't care to debate that as the claim itself was poorly defined. (Belief in prayer? God? Gods? Jesus?)

 

I never said I could prove it. What I said was that Science hasn't proved it

Science isn't concerned with untestable claims. Science is a tool so people can both learn and share what they learn with others in a very conservative manner. It has to be conservative because data can so easily be tainted.

 

A scientist can have a dream about their mother warning them the stove was left on, wake up, find it on and stop a fire and come to learn their mom died just hours earlier... a very spooky, moving personal experience but it would still be a personal experience. Science wouldn't have anything to say one way or the other - it's outside of the scope of testability. All you'd have is the anecdote of one person, no testable claims, no repeatable tests, no predictions, and no theory that can be vetted.

 

That scientist could ask other scientists for their personal opinion on what may have happened, which could range from supernatural explanations to subconscious thoughts coming out to simply missing that the waking up part to find it on was also part of the dream.

But, all those opinions are just that - opinions about a personal experience. None of them can test any of the information provided or do anything scientific with it.

 

Does getting involved in Science mean that you can't believe in God ?

 

Of course it's compatible, it just doesn't make sense how it's compatible to everyone. However, there are scientists who do believe in God here, so I'd say the answer is 'obviously you can do both.'

 

 

 

Please don't confuse the fact that, scientifically, there is no credible scientific evidence to support supernatural events as saying there are no personal experiences to support the existence of supernatural events.

 

Personal experiences are very powerful, but highly subjective and invalidateable as there are entire professions dedicated to faking these personal experiences. The fact that there are professionals that dupe people much of the time does not mean all personal experiences are the result of such fraud - it means it is impossible to tell if a believed personal experience is what it appears to be or not. Even if you are right and it is supernatural, the reason you went with that wouldn't be because you knew but because you believed and even that makes you only correct by coincidence - you didn't know, you guessed and got lucky.

 

The end result of all this is: Such things are fair game for personal beliefs, personal experiences, and casual conversations about spooky stuff and what we know or don't know. They offer science nothing to work with however, therefore science has nothing to say on the topic. The only things you can explore with science are clear evidenced cases of fraud, which is why science appears to be anti when it's really just mute. It's not anti-supernatural as it says nothing about supernatural theories. It may say things about faulty supernatural claims - clear failure of logic or outright evidence of fraud, or solid evidence contradicting a claim used to support a supernatural theory.

 

 

You can say "telekinesis can work because the brain's ability to think is quantum in nature and it..." and science won't say anything about telekinesis - but it may very well have something to say about whether the brain's computational mechanisms are actually small enough to involve quantum factors and thus why that specific explanation of telekinesis is bunk.

 

Someone may see that and say "you so say science says telekinesis can't work" and that would be incorrect, it only says there is no evidence that the brain works on a quantum level and therefor that explanation is flawed.

[tar]

Padren,

 

"I challenge you to come up with a single reason why prayer is better than collecting lint as a means of helping someone heal that is not based on a fallacy."

 

I realize you were challenging Clairvoyant, but I will take the challenge. Actually I gave a valid reason, in my previous post.

 

There is no reason for you to compare prayer to lint picking, other than as an ad hominum attack which is in itself a falacious logical tactic.

 

Regards, TAR