An infinite past leads to paradoxes (e.g., traversing infinite events to reach “now” violates causality). Therefore a scientist/atheist would have to believe that the Big Bang is an infinitely repeating event that is the ending/beginning of all existence and resets time to a previous state.

33 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

An infinite past leads to paradoxes (e.g., traversing infinite events to reach “now” violates causality). Therefore a scientist/atheist would have to believe that the Big Bang is an infinitely repeating event that is the ending/beginning of all existence and resets time to a previous state.

This doesn’t seem to make much sense. I can’t see why an infinite past would violate causality. Surely so long as each cause precedes its effect one can have chain of causality as long as one likes?

And then, even if infinite past did have problems, surely that would lead people to treat the big bang as a one-off, in order to avoid that issue.

10 minutes ago, exchemist said:

This doesn’t seem to make much sense. I can’t see why an infinite past would violate causality. Surely so long as each cause precedes its effect one can have chain of causality as long as one likes?

To reach the present moment (now), you would have to “pass through” all previous moments—an infinite number of them. But If time is made of discrete events (like ticks of a clock), then to get from the infinite past to now, you’d need to complete an infinite sequence of events. In standard intuition (and many physical models), you cannot complete an infinite task in a finite time. This is analogous to Zeno’s paradox of motion. This suggests a logical contradiction: the present should be unreachable if the past is truly infinite. Causality assumes causes precede effects in time. Every event has a prior cause (in a deterministic chain). If the past is infinite: The causal chain leading to “now” is infinitely long. There is no ultimate cause—every cause has a cause before it, forever. So, the present event (you reading this) depends on an infinite regress of causes. This creates a problem: How can an effect exist if its causal history never “starts”? It’s like a domino chain with no first domino—how does the falling ever begin? An infinite past requires actual infinity in time—something many argue is impossible or paradoxical.

26 minutes ago, exchemist said:

And then, even if infinite past did have problems, surely that would lead people to treat the big bang as a one-off, in order to avoid that issue.

Yeah, a one off that resets time to a previous state which is what I said in the OP. So basically, we would relive the same exact life. No one would remember the previous cycle so in that sense it is a one off.

58 minutes ago, exchemist said:

And then, even if infinite past did have problems, surely that would lead people to treat the big bang as a one-off, in order to avoid that issue.

I see what you’re saying, a true one off. A one-off Big Bang: time begins once, runs forward or expands forever). Finite past.

The scenario completely avoids the infinite past time paradox altogether while accepting an infinite time moving forward. How convenient.

Edited October 30Oct 30 by King Phenomenon

1 hour ago, King Phenomenon said:

The scenario completely avoids the infinite past time

And cyclic models

1 hour ago, King Phenomenon said:

This is analogous to Zeno’s paradox of motion. This suggests a logical contradiction: the present should be unreachable if the past is truly infinite.

I think calculus resolved Zeno. IIRC the concept of limits and infinite series in calculus provides a way to resolve such paradoxes by showing that an infinite number of steps can be completed in a finite amount of time.

25 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

And cyclic models

Well, according to @exchemist , one can have a chain of causality going into the past as long as one likes with no problems.

1 minute ago, TheVat said:

I think calculus resolved Zeno. IIRC the concept of limits and infinite series in calculus provides a way to resolve such paradoxes by showing that an infinite number of steps can be completed in a finite amount of time.

Yup, math, that’s one argument. Not much of an argument since we’re talking about reality not math.

1 minute ago, King Phenomenon said:

Well, according to @exchemist , one can have a chain of causality going into the past as long as one likes with no problems.

Well that is what infinity is by definition.

Infinity has Mathematical and philosophical questions and is much more complicated than simply following a line back to the past. Cantor did some genius work on this.

He is a good place to start.

3 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

Well, according to @exchemist , one can have a chain of causality going into the past as long as one likes with no problems.

No, coming from the past, obviously.

For example, the reason you exist today is attributable, via a long chain of causality, to a series of events starting about 3bn years ago when the first systems of biochemical molecules began to make copies of themselves. And then, if you want, you can even consider the chain of causality that gave rise to that series of events, from earlier still, encompassing the formation of the solar system. There is no reason to see any limit to this.

2 hours ago, King Phenomenon said:

To reach the present moment (now), you would have to “pass through” all previous moments—an infinite number of them. But If time is made of discrete events (like ticks of a clock), then to get from the infinite past to now, you’d need to complete an infinite sequence of events. In standard intuition (and many physical models), you cannot complete an infinite task in a finite time. This is analogous to Zeno’s paradox of motion. This suggests a logical contradiction: the present should be unreachable if the past is truly infinite. Causality assumes causes precede effects in time. Every event has a prior cause (in a deterministic chain). If the past is infinite: The causal chain leading to “now” is infinitely long. There is no ultimate cause—every cause has a cause before it, forever. So, the present event (you reading this) depends on an infinite regress of causes. This creates a problem: How can an effect exist if its causal history never “starts”? It’s like a domino chain with no first domino—how does the falling ever begin? An infinite past requires actual infinity in time—something many argue is impossible or paradoxical.

Yeah, a one off that resets time to a previous state which is what I said in the OP. So basically, we would relive the same exact life. No one would remember the previous cycle so in that sense it is a one off.

I see what you’re saying, a true one off. A one-off Big Bang: time begins once, runs forward or expands forever). Finite past.

The scenario completely avoids the infinite past time paradox altogether while accepting an infinite time moving forward. How convenient.

That is one of the preferred speculations: that time itself started just before the Big Bang. There was once a t=0, an origin, about 14bn years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe

3 minutes ago, exchemist said:

No, coming from the past, obviously.

For example, the reason you exist today is attributable, via a long chain of causality, to a series of events starting about 3bn years ago when the first systems of biochemical molecules began to make copies of themselves. And then, if you want, you can even consider the chain of causality that gave rise to that series of events, from earlier still, encompassing the formation of the solar system. There is no reason to see any limit to this.

No reason? Here’s 3 good reasons.

The present should be unreachable if the past is truly infinite.

The causal chain leading to “now” is infinitely long.

There is no ultimate cause. How can an effect exist if its causal history never “starts”?

12 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

Yup, math, that’s one argument. Not much of an argument since we’re talking about reality not math.

So math wouldn't be useful in, say, physics then? Mapping, description, measurements, those sorts of endeavors where math tools are used? No?

Just now, TheVat said:

So math wouldn't be useful in, say, physics then? Mapping, description, measurements, those sorts of endeavors where math tools are used? No?

Math is useful, but it breaks down in certain areas/fields.

Edited October 30Oct 30 by King Phenomenon

Just now, King Phenomenon said:

Math is useful, but it breaks down in certain areas/fields.

Well it's certainly been useless in physics! 🤨

I know I’m not gonna change anyones mind on this. If you believe time can go back infinitely into the past then you’ll probably die that way. Oh well. Have a great day!

Edited October 30Oct 30 by King Phenomenon

Just now, King Phenomenon said:

No reason? Here’s 3 good reasons.

The present should be unreachable if the past is truly infinite.

The causal chain leading to “now” is infinitely long.

There is no ultimate cause. How can an effect exist if its causal history never “starts”?

In that case, the causal chain would be infinitely long, but then there would also be an infinite length of time in which to allow it to evolve to reach the present. So one infinity would make up for the other one.

This is the trouble with infinities. You get nowhere with these games. It's all rather silly.

7 minutes ago, exchemist said:

In that case, the causal chain would be infinitely long, but then there would also be an infinite length of time in which to allow it to evolve to reach the present. So one infinity would make up for the other one.

This is the trouble with infinities. You get nowhere with these games. It's all rather silly.

You’re playing word games, not engaging the paradox. Anyways, it’s clear you’re set in your ways. Have a good day.

2 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

You’re playing word games, not engaging the paradox. Anyways, it’s clear you’re set in your ways. Have a good day.

There is no paradox. But yeah, I'll leave you to dream up your next argument for why there must be a God. 😁

5 minutes ago, exchemist said:

There is no paradox. But yeah, I'll leave you to dream up your next argument for why there must be a God. 😁

Well, if an endless chain of causality makes sense to you, then have at it. As a scientist, you’re pretty gullible.

Edited October 30Oct 30 by King Phenomenon

5 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

Well, if an endless chain of causality makes sense to you, then have at it. As a scientist, you’re pretty gullible.

Jolly good.

Until next time, then.😄

33 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

Math is useful, but it breaks down in certain areas/fields.

No. The wrong or inappropriate math breaks down.

32 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

If you believe time can go back infinitely into the past then you’ll probably die that way. Oh well.

No, it can't.
Time is one of the 4 dimensions of space-time.
Without geometry there is no apace-time.
And geometry breaks down at the Planck time ( t=10^-43 sec ), or the Planck scale ( see Quantum foam ).
So there is definitely a beginning of time unless you circumvent Planck scales by postulating cyclic models.

30 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

You’re playing word games, not engaging the paradox.

Zeno's paradox ???
There is a greater infinity of points ( yes that is possible ) between the real numbers 1 and 2, than there are real numbers.
It must be difficult for you to go from a distance of one meter to a distance of 2 meters, with that infinite number of steps 😃 😄 😂 .

36 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

Anyways, it’s clear you’re set in your ways. Have a good day.

Sure will.
Did my good deed for the day, and tried to eradicate some ignorance.

14 minutes ago, MigL said:

So there is definitely a beginning of time

Indeed

51 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

You’re playing word games

You are, too. Repeating an assertion is not proof. Making a statement that you can’t figure out is not a paradox. Where is the actual contradiction?

One problem is that you have a mathematical proposal but refuse to engage in math.

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

Zeno's paradox ???
There is a greater infinity of points ( yes that is possible ) between the real numbers 1 and 2, than there are real numbers.

I don't think so.

The cardinality of the reals is the greatest known there is.

It is also a property of infinite sets that any subset, any interval of the real line in this case, may be matched one-to one with the entire set.

49 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

Well, if an endless chain of causality makes sense to you, then have at it. As a scientist, you’re pretty gullible.

Am I gullible ?

Here is an endless chain of causality

Postulate 1 There is a first natural number

Postulate 2 Every natural number has a successor

Result there is an infinite chain of natural numbers each number causing the next number in the chain.

Note to MigL

The reals have a greater cardinality than the naturals.

Edited October 30Oct 30 by studiot

6 minutes ago, studiot said:

I don't think so.

The cardinality of the reals is the greatest known there is.

It is also a property of infinite sets that any subset, any interval of the real line in this case, may be matched one-to one with the entire set.

Am I gullible ?

Here is an endless chain of causality

Postulate 1 There is a first natural number

Postulate 2 Every natural number has a successor

Result there is an infinite chain of natural numbers each number causing the next number in the chain.

Note to MigL

The reals have a greater cardinality than the naturals.

I’m not talking about real numbers. I’m talking about events happening within space.

8 minutes ago, swansont said:

. Where is the actual contradiction?

Read the OP

7 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

I’m not talking about real numbers. I’m talking about events happening within space.

Nor was I

Read the reply yourself.

5 minutes ago, studiot said:

I don't think so.

Sorry, typing too quick ( at work ).
The infinity of real numbers is a higher order of infinity than the infinity of natural numbers.
IOW, there are more points between 1 and 2 than can be put into correspondence with 1,2,3,4,5, ... infinity

5 minutes ago, King Phenomenon said:

I’m not talking about real numbers. I’m talking about events happening within space.

Events can be ordered by assigning a number to them.

Edited October 30Oct 30 by MigL