33 minutes ago, toucana said:

Guess I’ll just have to accept that I’m now an old-timer, bumbling around in the basement of the internet, fondly stroking archaic old relic equipment, and muttering to myself about how wonderful the sweet mating music of dial-up modems used to be :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpMrTxMV6E4

I'm getting that feeling myself, having just tried to explain to a guy at Richer Sounds that I want to find a way of getting a wireless connection between my amp and a pair of remote speakers that I want to put in my kitchen. I don't think he has grasped that these speakers are the Wharfedale Denton 2s that I bought just before going up to uni in 1972, and so I want not just a wi-fi signal, but something with enough power to drive a pair of passive speakers. I actually don't think it's possible - I'll just have to run some thick wires. Cooking with Floyd, or Emerson, Lake and Palmer, with the garden door open should annoy the neighbours!

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

I don't think he has grasped that these speakers are the Wharfedale Denton 2s that I bought just before going up to uni in 1972, and so I want not just a wi-fi signal, but something with enough power to drive a pair of passive speakers. I actually don't think it's possible

Paging Nick Tesla!

3 hours ago, exchemist said:

I'm getting that feeling myself, having just tried to explain to a guy at Richer Sounds that I want to find a way of getting a wireless connection between my amp and a pair of remote speakers that I want to put in my kitchen. I don't think he has grasped that these speakers are the Wharfedale Denton 2s that I bought just before going up to uni in 1972, and so I want not just a wi-fi signal, but something with enough power to drive a pair of passive speakers. I actually don't think it's possible - I'll just have to run some thick wires. Cooking with Floyd, or Emerson, Lake and Palmer, with the garden door open should annoy the neighbours!

Wharfedale Denton 2 speakers don’t require that much power - rated for 18-20 Watts but will run on 5-10 Watts according to this thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BudgetAudiophile/comments/smfh24/opinions_on_wharfedale_denton_2s/

The buzz-words you need to google are something like  “Wireless audio bridge for remote passive speakers”. They do exist in the form of transmitter/receiver pairs, and are used in pro-audio work where you don’t want to run wires across busy street intersections, or in promenade event spaces.

https://www.klarkteknik.com/product.html?modelCode=0813-AAC

Some people also use these wireless audio bridges to feed home cinema system surround sound speakers, although with passive speaker units you will need a local standalone stereo audio amp as well.

1 hour ago, toucana said:

Wharfedale Denton 2 speakers don’t require that much power - rated for 18-20 Watts but will run on 5-10 Watts according to this thread.

But wifi is typically less than a Watt, IIRC.(When I bought a wi-fi router at work I had to prove it complied with some federal rule on EM emissions on government property) so you’d need an amplifier

8 hours ago, toucana said:

Wharfedale Denton 2 speakers don’t require that much power - rated for 18-20 Watts but will run on 5-10 Watts according to this thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BudgetAudiophile/comments/smfh24/opinions_on_wharfedale_denton_2s/

The buzz-words you need to google are something like  “Wireless audio bridge for remote passive speakers”. They do exist in the form of transmitter/receiver pairs, and are used in pro-audio work where you don’t want to run wires across busy street intersections, or in promenade event spaces.

https://www.klarkteknik.com/product.html?modelCode=0813-AAC

Some people also use these wireless audio bridges to feed home cinema system surround sound speakers, although with passive speaker units you will need a local standalone stereo audio amp as well.

Oh that's interesting, I'll look into that. Indeed, it would need to be a powered receiver generating an output for driving passive speakers.

The other issue I should perhaps have explained, and which I don't think the guy has grasped, is that I want the wifi transmitter to take as input the output from my amp. That's because my amp includes a radio receiver and has inputs from a CD player and an LP turntable, so that's 3 sources, one of which is internal to the amp. I want to be able to play all 3. So a wi-fi transmitter that takes mW level inputs from the original devices, is no good to me. I need one that can take as input the amp output intended to drive a pair of passive speakers, i.e. in the 15-20W range.

That's the bit I doubt exists. But maybe one of the links you have provided will tell me otherwise. It looks as though the function of these is closer to what I am trying to do...

Edited August 8Aug 8 by exchemist

4 hours ago, exchemist said:

I'm getting that feeling myself, having just tried to explain to a guy at Richer Sounds that I want to find a way of getting a wireless connection between my amp and a pair of remote speakers that I want to put in my kitchen. I don't think he has grasped that these speakers are the Wharfedale Denton 2s that I bought just before going up to uni in 1972, and so I want not just a wi-fi signal, but something with enough power to drive a pair of passive speakers. I actually don't think it's possible - I'll just have to run some thick wires. Cooking with Floyd, or Emerson, Lake and

5 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Oh that's interesting, I'll look into that. Indeed, it would need to be a powered receiver generating an output for driving passive speakers.

The other issue I should perhaps have explained, and which I don't think the guy has grasped, is that I want the wifi transmitter to take as input the output from my amp. That's because my amp includes a radio receiver and has inputs from a CD player and an LP turntable, so that's 3 sources, one of which is internal to the amp. I want to be able to play all 3. So a wi-fi transmitter that takes mW level inputs from the original devices is no good to me. I need one that can take as input the amp output intended to drive a pair of passive speakers, i.e. in the 15-20W range.

That's the bit I doubt exists. But maybe one of the links you have provided will tell me otherwise......

Whatever way you do it, the speakers need to be wired to their own amplifiers i.e made active, to drive the speaker units. They need current and a wireless signal. You would have wall sockets in the vicinity of each speaker. Google 'convert analog speaker to wireless active'. I've deliberately put the US version of 'analogue' because it will likely get more hits.

Edited August 8Aug 8 by StringJunky

36 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Whatever way you do it, the speakers need to be wired to their own amplifiers i.e made active, to drive the speaker units. They need current and a wireless signal. You would have wall sockets in the vicinity of each speaker. Google 'convert analog speaker to wireless active'. I've deliberately put the US version of 'analogue' because it will likely get more hits.

Like the way you have summed it up. +1

However there is still more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't know anything about echemist's kitchen or the availability of UK mains sockets or where he wishes to place the speakers.

So here are a few thoughts.

Modern mains sockets often incorporate a USB outlet with sufficient power to power an ordinary speaker.
Plugin usb adaptors with a 13A passthrough are also available if there is a shortage of three pin outlets.
It may be cheaper to get remote usb speakers than comvert the Dentons. There are some pretty good ones available nowadays.
There are also modular boxes available that could power the Dentons if you are set on keeping these.
But modern solutions will take up less space.

It may not be necessary or convenient to convert the audio signal to wifi.
It is desireable to digitise it (though I would use a signal level not power level output eg the tape at the amplifier - I do this for the TV at home).
The digitised signal may also be transmittable through the house mains. I have done this on lots of occasions.
If wifi is necessary, this can be done using a cheap converter box designed to send a signal to wifiheadphones. Last year I set up one of these to send a signal from my daughter's electric piano to her wifiheadphones.

@exchemist If you are interested in any of these ideas, I will see what details I can dig out.

24 minutes ago, studiot said:

Like the way you have summed it up. +1

However there is still more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't know anything about echemist's kitchen or the availability of UK mains sockets or where he wishes to place the speakers.

So here are a few thoughts.

Modern mains sockets often incorporate a USB outlet with sufficient power to power an ordinary speaker.
Plugin usb adaptors with a 13A passthrough are also available if there is a shortage of three pin outlets.
It may be cheaper to get remote usb speakers than comvert the Dentons. There are some pretty good ones available nowadays.
There are also modular boxes available that could power the Dentons if you are set on keeping these.
But modern solutions will take up less space.

It may not be necessary or convenient to convert the audio signal to wifi.
It is desireable to digitise it (though I would use a signal level not power level output eg the tape at the amplifier - I do this for the TV at home).
The digitised signal may also be transmittable through the house mains. I have done this on lots of occasions.
If wifi is necessary, this can be done using a cheap converter box designed to send a signal to wifiheadphones. Last year I set up one of these to send a signal from my daughter's electric piano to her wifiheadphones.

@exchemist If you are interested in any of these ideas, I will see what details I can dig out.

Hang on, are you saying the tape output from my amp is signal level, not speaker power level? That could be the answer, then. I do in fact still have a tape player but never use it, so repurposing the tape output would be no loss.

I could wire a wi-fi transmitter to the tape output, which would carry the signal from whatever device the amp was currently switched to. So then I just need a wi-fi receiver in the kitchen with an amp to generate a power level output for the speakers, or I buy a pair of active speakers that use a wi-fi signal - those are readily available, it seems.

(If I did that I'd still keep the Dentons, for sentimental reasons - they have followed me faithfully throughout my adult life and still sound pretty decent. I'll just carry on using them in the living room, where they are now. And the spare set of speakers will then be the ones from my wife, currently wired up in the piano room upstairs, though very rarely used.)

The standard tape output will be about 100mv rms, the old audio inter equipment standard.

I presume you amp is too old to have a digital audio output, either coax (RCA or Phono) or Optical. I use the optical (Toslink) with my telly.

What is the make and model of the amp please?

Note I have asked the mods to hive this off as its own thread as it is of more general and long term interest.

Edited August 8Aug 8 by studiot

9 minutes ago, studiot said:

The standard tape output will be about 100mv rms, the old audio inter equipment standard.

I presume you amp is too old to have a digital audio output, either coax (RCA or Phono) or Optical. I use the optical (Toslink) with my telly.

What is the make and model of the amp please?

Note I have asked the mods to hive this off as its own thread as it is of more general and long term interest.

Yeah it's a Rotel tuner/amp from the early 1980s. Model RX 403. Again, works fine so why replace? Connections are phono analogue, so I suppose that means RCA.

And you are quite right: we have drifted way off-topic for this thread, thought it is an interesting subject in its own right.

P.S. I see Rotel is still going today, though now Chinese owned.

Edited August 8Aug 8 by exchemist

My lounge amp is a Kenwood KA550 from that era, probably very similar.

So from the spec sheet you have two tape outputs, one to DIN and one to RCAphono at 350millivolts RMS.

A S/H Rotel RX403 is currently fetching around £139 on the net.

It's lunch time now so I will look for suitable transponders this afternoon.

https://hifi-wiki.com/index.php/Rotel_RX-403

I note there are a couple of new posts on the old thread that appeared after the move.

Thank you swansont.

Connections

• Number of inputs:

  • Phono MM: 2 mV, 50 kOhm.

Aux: 150 mV, 50 kOhm, max. 15 V Tape Play: 150 mV, 50 kOhm, max. 15 V

• Antenna FM (75/300 Ohm), MW (300 Ohm).

• Number of outputs:

  • Tape Rec: 350 mV, 3.3 kOhm.

  • Tape Rec DIN: 120 mV, 90 kOhm

  • Headphones:

  • 2 pairs of speakers

Edited August 8Aug 8 by studiot

Of course I forgot about bluetooth as I don't actually use it.

This has a 10m range

https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2793383.pdf

Bluetooth 2-in-1 Audio Transmitter & Receiver - 

BTTR2

But what about the speaker end ?

The expensive part will be converting the Dentons to self power, when for £10 - £20 you could get a package as I described for wifi or bluetooth.

Edited August 8Aug 8 by studiot

30 minutes ago, studiot said:

Of course I forgot about bluetooth as I don't actually use it.

This has a 10m range

https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2793383.pdf

Bluetooth 2-in-1 Audio Transmitter & Receiver - 

BTTR2

But what about the speaker end ?

The expensive part will be converting the Dentons to self power, when for £10 - £20 you could get a package as I described for wifi or bluetooth.

Thanks but I think I probably need wi-fi rather than bluetooth. The distance is ~12m (I have a 30ft knocked-through sitting/dining room) and of course it's the other side of a brick wall.

I first recall hearing about wireless audio bridges in a rather unusual and sombre context -  the funeral of Diana Princess of Wales which took place on Saturday September 6th 1997. There were 2000 mourners inside Westminster Abbey, another 32 million watching on British TV, but there were also countless thousands of people lining the streets waiting to throw flowers on the hearse as it left the Abbey. The authorities wanted these people to be able to hear the funeral service as they waited patiently - but how ? You could hardly run speaker cables across busy London street intersections.

According to a story the following week in Lighting & Sound International  (the main trade magazine at the time), the office of the Queens’s Royal Chamberlain summoned the bosses of all the main London AV hire firms to a meeting at Buckingham Palace and gave them carte blanche - “Just make it happen and we will pick up the bill”.

The chosen solution was to use wireless audio bridges on every major intersection on the route out of London. It was said that they emptied out the entire equipment inventory of all the AV hire firms in London doing it, but they made it happen, and at very short notice too. And the story has stuck in my mind ever since.

One possibility, depending upon your budget though you can get these s/h from _bay, is the explore the Sonos systems.

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/guides/amp

They have several useful products depending upon where your router etc is.

3 hours ago, studiot said:

One possibility, depending upon your budget though you can get these s/h from _bay, is the explore the Sonos systems.

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/guides/amp

They have several useful products depending upon where your router etc is.

Thanks it was a Sonos product that the Richer Sounds guy suggested. But What Hi Fi gave it a bum review on sound quality, suggesting instead a Bluesound Node. What I still can't understand about these boxes is:

a) whether they are transmitters to the house wi-fi, or receivers from the wi-fi that can power speakers. The comment about sound quality suggests they may amplify and they have socket outputs for things like sub woofers as well as inputs, both of which suggest they are receivers, which then leaves open the question of what you use to transmit a wi-fi signal from your stereo system,

b) if they are indeed transmitters to the wi-fi, can they accept an analogue input from the tape monitor output of my amp?. The descriptions wax lyrical about digital inputs but that does not help.

The write-ups assume a level of familiarity with the technology I don't have, and the manufacturers' website are worse. I'm reminded of Flanders and Swann's "Song of Reproduction". "I see you've got your negative feedback coupled in with your push-pull input-output. Take that across to your head-head pickup, to your tweeter, and you'll get wow on your top. You try to bring that down through your pre-amp rumble filter to your woofer and what'll you get? Flutter on your bottom!" That was 60s techie-speak. I'm experiencing 2020s techie-speak now.

But this discussion has given me more clarity about the issues so thanks to you and @toucana for all the help. I think next I'll have to get on my bike to the Lower King's Road and beard the Richer Sounds chap in his den, now that I have at least a better idea about what it is I don't understand.

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

Thanks it was a Sonos product that the Richer Sounds guy suggested. But What Hi Fi gave it a bum review on sound quality, suggesting instead a Bluesound Node. What I still can't understand about these boxes is:

a) whether they are transmitters to the house wi-fi, or receivers from the wi-fi that can power speakers. The comment about sound quality suggests they may amplify and they have socket outputs for things like sub woofers as well as inputs, both of which suggest they are receivers, which then leaves open the question of what you use to transmit a wi-fi signal from your stereo system,

b) if they are indeed transmitters to the wi-fi, can they accept an analogue input from the tape monitor output of my amp?. The descriptions wax lyrical about digital inputs but that does not help.

The write-ups assume a level of familiarity with the technology I don't have, and the manufacturers' website are worse. I'm reminded of Flanders and Swann's "Song of Reproduction". "I see you've got your negative feedback coupled in with your push-pull input-output. Take that across to your head-head pickup, to your tweeter, and you'll get wow on your top. You try to bring that down through your pre-amp rumble filter to your woofer and what'll you get? Flutter on your bottom!" That was 60s techie-speak. I'm experiencing 2020s techie-speak now.

But this discussion has given me more clarity about the issues so thanks to you and @toucana for all the help. I think next I'll have to get on my bike to the Lower King's Road and beard the Richer Sounds chap in his den, now that I have at least a better idea about what it is I don't understand.

Thank you that was useful information whilst I had dinner.

OK so some further explanation to take with you.

It's getting late for proper composition so I will add a block/flow diagram that should help a lot.

Meanwhile a few words.

The average CD is 650 Mbytes and is meant to hold 60 minutes at CD quality. This is not a HIfi discussion about CD, just some facts.

So the file size of an average track say 3 minutes is 3/60 x 650 Mbytes or 32.5 Mbytes.

You have an analogue audio signal coming out of your auxiliary or tape output.

This signal is an electrical copy of the audio waveform, running at the correct speed of the music or sound if it is from radio section.

The wifi system is designed to transmit a digital signal which is made up of electrical pulses that are organised according to specific conventions, just as English uses letters organised into words according to conventions.

These pulses are superimposed on the wifi carrier radio wave just like conventional radio and TV.

If the wifi system is going to transmit the pulses correspond to the whole digital (computer) file it can do it all in one go.

But three factors make this more difficult and require an extra stage.

Firstly transferring 32.5 Mbytes at wifi speeds will take no more than 8 seconds and you want toplay it back over 180 seconds.

So your receiver would need some kind of storage called buffering.

Secondly the wifi network may be busy transferring other files to other devices on the network so the actual data is broken into smaller 'packets' and not sent all at once.

Thirdly the source material may be spread out in time so may be sent in irregularly timed packets.

Managing this last requirement is called streaming.

With the right equipment all this is done automatically.

The sonos device I linked to can accept the audio signal input and digitise it to suitable form and I think stream it onto the network.

The input connectors ar listed as RCAphono so also suitable.

Further it can join the network either though an ethernet cable or through the wifi as a bonafide device oon the network.

This is why I asked you where the router is - you might be able to just plug it in.

I have a Roberts radio with this capability and a Humax TV rcorder that I can stream recorded TV from to my pc or other devices on my network.

Thanks all for the advice. I’m having a second look at bluetooth, as it appears one can get long range bluetooth now that can send a signal >50m. If true, and if it can get through a brick wall, that may work. These transmitters seem to be fairly inexpensive, though I would of course need to buy bluetooth active speakers to receive the signal.

Any comments on this?