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Death Map United States.

Nvredward
in Speculations

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8 minutes ago, Nvredward said:

I was looking at this map. I think seawater could be the cause, in my opinion.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/figures/mm6810a7-F.gif

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-1500w,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2016_50/1830991/161213-jama-cardivascular-death-map.jpgs

No the black-coloured states are the ones where Americans are fattest. 😁

But, more seriously, there does seem to be some clustering around the Mississippi and its tributaries. I know nothing about US demographics but could this correlate with poor, black ex-slave communities?

Edited by exchemist

2 minutes ago, exchemist said:

But, more seriously, there does seem to be some clustering around the Mississippi and its tributaries. I know nothing about US demographics but could this correlate with poor, black ex-slave communities?

Poverty is a big factor, as does being black. Especially in the south, access to health care is limited and in conjunction with poverty is a significant driver low life expectancy, for example.

And likewiese, BMI is inversely associated with socioeconomic incomes. A trend that is not only found in the US. However, in the US the impact (i.e. the level of obesity) is higher than e.g. in the UK or Germany.

9 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Poverty is a big factor, as does being black. Especially in the south, access to health care is limited and in conjunction with poverty is a significant driver low life expectancy, for example.

Search the Internet for “mortality rate of millionaires in the US compared to other Western countries.”

e.g.

https://fortune.com/well/article/wealthy-americans-shorter-lifespan-europe/

"In a new study published today, researchers at Brown University analyzed the survival rates and wealth of older adults in the U.S. and Europe over 12 years. They found that Americans’ survival rate was lower than their European counterparts across all wealth tiers. The wealthiest in Northern and Western Europe had a mortality rate roughly 35% lower than that of the wealthiest Americans.  "

Just now, CharonY said:

And likewiese, BMI is inversely associated with socioeconomic incomes. A trend that is not only found in the US. However, in the US the impact (i.e. the level of obesity) is higher than e.g. in the UK or Germany.

In Europe, we don't eat shit. Seriously. It doesn't matter how much money someone has.

If someone here doesn't have money, they cook their own (healthy) meals. No processed junk food.

This week, I watched a video on YouTube showing that in the US you can buy peeled, cooked eggs in packs of a dozen or so. How much chemicals did they have to add to make them last longer than a few days?

In Europe no one in their right mind would touch it with a ten-foot pole.

I spent $2 on breakfast, lunch, and dinner today. I cooked it myself.

And this was not an isolated case. I usually limit my daily food budget to $2-3.

It is usually closer to $2 than $3.

For $2, you can buy about 400 grams of pork neck. Fresher, at the butcher's shop.

I was going to buy pork shoulder, it was on sale yesterday for $3.5/kg, but when I came at 4 p.m., it was already sold out. They cut off a piece on the spot and put it in a grinding machine. Don't buy minced meat from factories where you don't know what they're grinding up in there. Such meat is placed in vacuum bags and can remain there for weeks. No thanks. I prefer the saleswoman to grind it in front of me. For the dish I made myself, I would have had to pay $10 in a restaurant. Making your own healthy dinner is much cheaper than buying it “on the town.”

Edited by Sensei

I believe the article is referring to a recent study in N Engl J Med and the issue pointed out in the study are a range of social factors including weaker social structures, but also diet. It is suggested that health care is a huge (known) driver of mortality among the poor, which is also seen in the much larger mortality gap between poor and rich in the USA compared to other countries.

Other issues potentially affecting the wealthy in the US could also include environment, social mobility, and social attitudes. But the study also points out that they really are not able to tell with this specific study.

It should also be noted that this study did things a bit differently than prior studies. Others often focused on income, where other studies showed similar survival rates between USA and Europe in the higher income brackets. But looking at wealth bins, the reduction in the US becomes visible. They speculate that this caused by income differences at a given wealth distribution. I.e. the US has a higher concentration of high-income individuals in the top wealth bin and argue that their approach might be better at finding the impact of socio-economic status on health.

And just to show some additional maps of the US (all from HDPulse: An Ecosystem of Minority Health and Health Disparities Resources. National Institute on Minority Health and Health Disparities), which likely are going to vanish at some point:

image.png

image.png

image.png

If someone says that they “cook at home,” but then buys puree that they throw in the microwave, meat that they throw in the microwave, and some pre-prepared vegetables that they throw in the microwave. Boiled eggs with the shells already removed, etc., etc., then they are not “cooking at home”. They are just reheating factory-made, chemically preprocessed food that has been preserved to stay fresh longer.

Pancakes out of a bag, poured from a canister... ? what is that supposed to be? It's rather difficult to call that “cooking a fresh/home-made breakfast”..

Pancakes are made with flour, mineral water, eggs, and salt. And people in US can pour it from some kind of container with liquid pancakes?

A viral video from this week: a tourist from the US couldn't believe that in Europe vegetables are not sold in airtight vacuum bags, but are just lying around loose, and not even washed... :)

The production of unhealthy food in the US has become so ingrained that it is now a structural problem.

After all, the prices of vegetables and fruit when bought directly from the farmer are lower than those bought and processed in a factory. There is no profit margin for processing this food.

Every day, local farmers bring me fresh vegetables to nearby stores. Harvested yesterday from the field, today eat.

No factory is needed to process it into “mashed potatoes.”

1 hour ago, Nvredward said:

I think seawater could be the cause, in my opinion.

I think it's highly processed food, which is at the very end of the cause-and-effect chain.

ps. There is no reason to add corn syrup to everything.

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

In Europe, we don't eat shit. Seriously. It doesn't matter how much money someone has.

While the US has a a poor diet, especially among low income folks, it is a bit of an overgeneralization to state that these things are absent in Europe.

Processed foods has been making inroads for some time unfortunately and obesity as well as diabetes rates in many European countries have been climbing. There is still a 10-point gap (30ish vs 40ish) among the high obesity European countries and the US, but it is a bit false to assume that there is nothing to worry about.

26 minutes ago, Sensei said:

A viral video from this week: a tourist from the US couldn't believe that in Europe vegetables are not sold in airtight vacuum bags, but are just lying around loose, and not even washed... :)

And this is why video is a horrible way to spread information but a great source for misinformation. There are many farmer's markets in the US and in regular grocery stores there is always a vegetable section with loose vegetables.

27 minutes ago, Sensei said:

After all, the prices of vegetables and fruit when bought directly from the farmer are lower than those bought and processed in a factory. There is no profit margin for processing this food.

Not necessarily though, and it boils down to how much is being bought. In fact, buying directly from farmers can be more expensive as an individual, as you do not have the negotiating power, say, McDonald's has.

2 hours ago, Nvredward said:

was looking at this map. I think seawater could be the cause, in my opinion.

Why do you think that? How would seawater shorten lifespan?

17 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Not necessarily though, and it boils down to how much is being bought. In fact, buying directly from farmers can be more expensive as an individual, as you do not have the negotiating power, say, McDonald's has.

In addition, not everyone has ready access to perishables on a timely basis, and not everyone can do extensive food preparation. Doesn’t do any good to buy food that will rot before your next trip to the store, or something you can’t cook up.

13 minutes ago, swansont said:

In addition, not everyone has ready access to perishables on a timely basis, and not everyone can do extensive food preparation. Doesn’t do any good to buy food that will rot before your next trip to the store, or something you can’t cook up.

That has also been brought up as an issue to the rise of dual-income families, where time for household jobs, including cooking, is diminished.

53 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That has also been brought up as an issue to the rise of dual-income families, where time for household jobs, including cooking, is diminished.

I saw something recently that pointed out that widespread cooking at home for city dwellers is a fairly recent development. People used to regularly go to street vendors or inns/pubs to eat. The infrastructure to cook in city dwellings, for anyone who’s not upper-crust, is more or less a 20th century development (i.e. having gas and/or electricity available). Hard to cook, hard to store food.

Just now, swansont said:

I saw something recently that pointed out that widespread cooking at home for city dwellers is a fairly recent development. People used to regularly go to street vendors or inns/pubs to eat. The infrastructure to cook in city dwellings, for anyone who’s not upper-crust, is more or less a 20th century development (i.e. having gas and/or electricity available)

Interesting. I did now know that, but it seems intuitive. Only partially related, but that also reminds me that in rural areas, access to grocery stores is often poor and perhaps slightly counter-intuitively, in rural areas obesity rates are generally higher.

6 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Interesting. I did now know that, but it seems intuitive. Only partially related, but that also reminds me that in rural areas, access to grocery stores is often poor and perhaps slightly counter-intuitively, in rural areas obesity rates are generally higher.

A lot of issues are tied to poverty, as you mentioned earlier. One problem is that eating healthy isn’t the only issue; you need to consume enough calories, and unhealthy/junk food is often laden with them. Eating fruits and vegetables doesn’t matter as much - if you’re not getting ~2000 calories a day, you’re eventually going to starve. So you want to maximize calories per dollar.

2 hours ago, swansont said:

So you want to maximize calories per dollar.

That is true in most parts in the world, but I believe that lack of calories is limited to a relatively small subset in Western countries (typically elderly and homeless folks). For most others it is more about having enough nutrients in the calories consumed.

8 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

The UK is in the same boat with 2/3rds overweight and 1/4 Obese.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/update-to-the-obesity-profile-on-fingertips/obesity-profile-short-statistical-commentary-may-2024

Overweight is a general problem, but with regard to obesity the UK is doing a bit better especially compared to the US, but also (slightly surprising to me, tbh) somewhat in European comparison. I believe France was always doing well in that regard.

18 hours ago, swansont said:

I saw something recently that pointed out that widespread cooking at home for city dwellers is a fairly recent development. People used to regularly go to street vendors or inns/pubs to eat. The infrastructure to cook in city dwellings, for anyone who’s not upper-crust, is more or less a 20th century development (i.e. having gas and/or electricity available). Hard to cook, hard to store food.

Yes more of a challenge before refrigerators. The upper and middle classes relied on cooks, of course. And I think, from reading Dickens, that lower classes indeed bought pies and things a lot of the time. I should think you would need quite a big kitchen to cook on an open fire.

Just now, CharonY said:

somewhat in European comparison. I believe France was always doing well in that regard

South Europe is supposed to have a very good diet, red wine, olive oil, fish, Traditional, obviously no crap fast food and ready meals.

23 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

South Europe is supposed to have a very good diet, red wine, olive oil, fish, Traditional, obviously no crap fast food and ready meals.

I am sure the food culture plays a role, but it seems France is extra-different. Italy is somewhat lower than UK (~ 28% UK to ~20% Italy or something around that), Spain a bit lower than that (maybe 19). Yet, Greece is on the higher end, with 33 (similar to much of Balkan/Eastern Europe). The Netherlands, which is similar to Germany (~24%) in many regards is below Spain. And then there is France with around 10%.

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    23 hours ago, swansont said:

    Doesn’t do any good to buy food that will rot before your next trip to the store, or something you can’t cook up.

    If someone lives in the city, and does not have a refrigerator (???), he buys only as much as he needs.. In a day or two, when he uses up the previous ones, he buys new ones.

    But in order to buy as much as you need, these vegetables and fruits can't be in some bags that you can't open and pick out a few pieces of what you need!

    ie, you buy by weight

    You weigh stuff on a scale that stands and choose for yourself on the touch screen, for example, potatoes, onions, carrots, etc.

    21 hours ago, swansont said:

    I saw something recently that pointed out that widespread cooking at home for city dwellers is a fairly recent development. People used to regularly go to street vendors or inns/pubs to eat. The infrastructure to cook in city dwellings, for anyone who’s not upper-crust, is more or less a 20th century development (i.e. having gas and/or electricity available). Hard to cook, hard to store food.

    You guys live in some kind of parallel universe.

    When there were no refrigerators, people smoked meat, pickled vegetables with a lot of salt, onions and garlic, and from fruit in summer they prepared jams or jam, and this was kept in cellars (because it was coldest there).

    I keep thinking about making pickled cucumbers now, but I'm waiting for a good price per kilogram. It was already $0.6 per kg, but I did not buy.

    Before people started using electricity (do you mean those super current-consumers i.e. induction cooktops?!) or gas, everyone used coal and wood to cook dinner. I know people who still have such things in their homes..

    It is difficult to create a gas installation in old buildings. Several decades ago I had an apartment in the second city in which you simply replaced the gas cylinder under the stove.

    You cook yourself dinner, and in the process heat the entire apartment in winter.

    1 hour ago, Sensei said:

    Before people started using electricity (do you mean those super current-consumers i.e. induction cooktops?!) or gas, everyone used coal and wood to cook dinner. I know people who still have such things in their homes..

    And a 1900-era tenement? Did they have such infrastructure in their tiny apartment? I can imagine how much fun it was to lug that fuel up many flights of stairs. Cooking took a long time, so what if you lived alone? Working 12 hours in the Chicago stockyard or at some sweatshop (plus commuting time) would make that difficult.

    And my parallel universe must be imagining things like this

    https://www.chamoycitylimits.com/blogs/chamoy-blog/history-of-street-food-in-the-usa?

    https://www.6sqft.com/from-oysters-to-falafel-the-complete-history-of-street-vending-in-nyc/

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    5 hours ago, swansont said:

    And a 1900-era tenement? Did they have such infrastructure in their tiny apartment? I can imagine how much fun it was to lug that fuel up many flights of stairs. Cooking took a long time, so what if you lived alone? Working 12 hours in the Chicago stockyard or at some sweatshop (plus commuting time) would make that difficult.

    A wood or coal stove for a normal family is the same size as, or just slightly larger than my today's gas stove. Here is an example photo from a hundred years ago:

    wood cooking stove.png

    Before women's emancipation, after all, they stayed at home with their children (and there were a lot of them!) and they had to eat something..

    After all, they are also used to heat the apartment in the cold winter.

    I know people who still used such inventions 20 years ago.

    When it's -15°C to -20°C here, you can immediately tell who has a wood or coal stove, because you can see the characteristic smoke coming out of their chimney. For about five or ten years now, drones have been flying over chimneys to check whether people are burning trash.

    5 hours ago, swansont said:

    And a 1900-era tenement? Did they have such infrastructure in their tiny apartment?

    There are tenement, and then there are tenement. There were times when there was only one kitchen and one bathroom (WC) for the entire floor. Damn. It's a good thing I never had to deal with that.

    But there are films from over 50 years ago that even made jokes about it..

    Edited by Sensei

    4 hours ago, Sensei said:

    A wood or coal stove for a normal family is the same size as, or just slightly larger than my today's gas stove. Here is an example photo from a hundred years ago:

    wood cooking stove.png

    Before women's emancipation, after all, they stayed at home with their children (and there were a lot of them!) and they had to eat something..

    After all, they are also used to heat the apartment in the cold winter.

    I know people who still used such inventions 20 years ago.

    When it's -15°C to -20°C here, you can immediately tell who has a wood or coal stove, because you can see the characteristic smoke coming out of their chimney. For about five or ten years now, drones have been flying over chimneys to check whether people are burning trash.

    There are tenement, and then there are tenement. There were times when there was only one kitchen and one bathroom (WC) for the entire floor. Damn. It's a good thing I never had to deal with that.

    But there are films from over 50 years ago that even made jokes about it..

    Yes indeed, a cast iron stove could be used, from the late c.18th/c.19th. (There are pictures of them in the Beatrix Potter books, in Lake District cottages.) I gather there were brick ones for about a century before that. But I don't know how widespread these would have been in urban working class homes.

    Edited by exchemist

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