I mean raising kids to have high Openness to Experience, one of the Big Five personality traits. It includes several traits: intellectual curiosity, aesthetics, fantasy, adventurousness, feelings, values.

In other words, children who, when they become adults, constantly self-educate (out of genuine curiosity), can have deep discussions about the theory of evolution, macroeconomics and political theory alike, have good imagination, appreciate art and beauty, are open to new and unconventional value systems etc. The crucial period is childhood and adolescence when neuroplasticity is much higher than in an adult.

The crucial point is that the upbringing cannot be forceful. Forcing a child/teen to do anything will most likely backfire when they get older. It's also morally wrong for me, my parents never forced me to do anything and I cannot imagine forcing my future kids either

Edited July 17Jul 17 by Otto Kretschmer

32 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

The crucial point is that the upbringing cannot be forceful.

Agree. You have to give them opportunity and encouragement but not force it, and try to avoid having anything negative associated with the experience. I think reading to them and then letting them read when they learn how, opens a lot of doors to curiosity and wanting to learn new things. Also spending the time when they do show curiosity.

1 hour ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

I mean raising kids to have high Openness to Experience, one of the Big Five personality traits. It includes several traits: intellectual curiosity, aesthetics, fantasy, adventurousness, feelings, values.

In other words, children who, when they become adults, constantly self-educate (out of genuine curiosity), can have deep discussions about the theory of evolution, macroeconomics and political theory alike, have good imagination, appreciate art and beauty, are open to new and unconventional value systems etc. The crucial period is childhood and adolescence when neuroplasticity is much higher than in an adult.

The crucial point is that the upbringing cannot be forceful. Forcing a child/teen to do anything will most likely backfire when they get older. It's also morally wrong for me, my parents never forced me to do anything and I cannot imagine forcing my future kids either

Yes, but I think one should raise them to be critical as well as open-minded. There are far too many credulous people in today's world. And with the internet it is more crucial than ever to be able to sort reliable information from rubbish.

One important thing to do as a parent, I think, is to lead by example by displaying curiosity about the world: taking an interest in as wide a range of things as possible, be it things in nature, stories, other people and so on. I think the ability to take an interest in things, to be curious and keen to apply one's mind to whatever one encounters, is vital, whether it be serious analysis of a situation or an idea, or just amusement. Seeing the funny side of things is very helpful in life.

And then make sure they go to a good school, where their minds will be expanded, encouraging them to think, not just get good grades in exams and (also important) one where they will pick up the habit of enjoying physical activities. This will develop habits that will help keep them healthy in mind and body in later life. (I sometimes think that teaching me to enjoy singing and the feeling of fitness I got from rowing have been more important in my life than everything academic that I learnt. My son also got used to being fit at school - now he climbs mountains for leisure.)

Edited July 17Jul 17 by exchemist

3 hours ago, exchemist said:

Yes, but I think one should raise them to be critical as well as open-minded. There are far too many credulous people in today's world. And with the internet it is more crucial than ever to be able to sort reliable information from rubbish.

I think that skill has to wait for brain development to catch up.

Travel and exposure to different regions and cultures is one of the surest ways to expand the mind and openness of a developing human.

Becoming a parent, however, helps you realize that nature plays a massively oversized role relative to nurture.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by iNow

4 hours ago, iNow said:

Travel and exposure to different regions and cultures is one of the surest ways to expand the mind and openness of a developing human.

Becoming a parent, however, helps you realize that nature plays a massively oversized role relative to nurture.

I myself possess the aforementioned traits (my intellectual curiosity is probably in the top 1% of the population, I am also aesthetically sensitive, I hold unconventional worldview and I'm a big history/alt history fan, having written alt history stories myself). I wouldn't oppose my tuture wife/partner possessing them as well. In fact, this would be the optimal kind of partner for me, I doubt I'd have much to talk about with an aintelectually average person.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by Otto Kretschmer

7 hours ago, swansont said:

I think that skill has to wait for brain development to catch up.

Not sure about that. I think small children are very open-minded, as they have not yet learnt when to be sceptical. I don't really think a young child has to be taught to be open-minded. I suspect it is how to teach critical evaluation and scepticism without it leading to closed mindedness, incuriosity or cynicism that is the challenge.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by exchemist

13 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

I mean raising kids to have high Openness to Experience, one of the Big Five personality traits. It includes several traits: intellectual curiosity, aesthetics, fantasy, adventurousness, feelings, values.

In other words, children who, when they become adults, constantly self-educate (out of genuine curiosity), can have deep discussions about the theory of evolution, macroeconomics and political theory alike, have good imagination, appreciate art and beauty, are open to new and unconventional value systems etc. The crucial period is childhood and adolescence when neuroplasticity is much higher than in an adult.

The crucial point is that the upbringing cannot be forceful. Forcing a child/teen to do anything will most likely backfire when they get older. It's also morally wrong for me, my parents never forced me to do anything and I cannot imagine forcing my future kids either

Just let them have a range of experiences, music, museums, country walks, the beach, the big city.

They will ask questions and let them explore different answers because not all questions will have a straight forward answer.

One of the most important questions my son asked me.

"Is the Bible just stories dad?"

I would have let him down greatly if I would have given him my answer, my opinion. Even if my opinion was based on scholarship by learned academics.

Did I ever fail him on being open minded? Yes, music. Watching TOTPs I announced with an air of authority, "Son, this music is beyond crap."

The music playing WOULD have been beyond crap for me to say that and I told him years later.

He saw the funny side, "Son, it was for your own good!"

He (mostly) has good taste today so I feel vindicated.

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

Not sure about that. I think small children are very open-minded, as they have not yet learnt when to be sceptical. I don't really think a young child has to be taught to be open-minded. I suspect it is how to teach critical evaluation and scepticism without it leading to closed mindedness, incuriosity or cynicism that is the challenge.

Yes. The point you made and I responded to was about being critical.

“The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s. The part of the brain behind the forehead, called the prefrontal cortex, is one of the last parts to mature. This area is responsible for skills like planning, prioritizing, and making good decisions.”

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-7-things-to-know

16 minutes ago, swansont said:

Yes. The point you made and I responded to was about being critical.

“The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s. The part of the brain behind the forehead, called the prefrontal cortex, is one of the last parts to mature. This area is responsible for skills like planning, prioritizing, and making good decisions.”

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-7-things-to-know

Sometimes even longer. I'm 31 now and I was poor at long term planning for nearly all my life, I pretty much only lived in the present. Over the last 3 years I've developed my predictive and planning skills largely due to consious work and self discipline.

1 hour ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

Sometimes even longer. I'm 31 now and I was poor at long term planning for nearly all my life, I pretty much only lived in the present. Over the last 3 years I've developed my predictive and planning skills largely due to consious work and self discipline.

Fully developing the skills requires the mature brain, but it’s not automatic; you still have to learn and practice. Same for motor skills — you’re not all that coordinated as a child, but being physically mature doesn’t mean you are suddenly great at sports without practicing.

16 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

The crucial point is that the upbringing cannot be forceful. Forcing a child/teen to do anything will most likely backfire when they get older. It's also morally wrong for me, my parents never forced me to do anything and I cannot imagine forcing my future kids either

While I mostly agree on this, I would note that a mild exception often needs to be made with musical instruments. It does sometimes take a nudge from a parent to get across the concept that regular practice is vital in mastering an instrument and playing in an ensemble. Usually if the child has some affinity for the instrument, not much "force" is needed, but there is a small element of coercion - if you want to keep having lessons, then we need to have a regular practice time each day. My wife, a professional musician and music teacher, tries to have this learning be more carrots and less stick - e.g. mastering a piece of music they like, and having recitals. The child wants to do well in the recital, then they are motivated to practice. If that does not motivate them, then it is likely they wouldn't have the personality for longterm study of an instrument or ensemble playing. The only students she has recommended ending lessons to the parents were those who just didn't want to bother with practice.

My point is that I've met people who told me, "I took piano for a few months, and I didn't practice much. Now I wish my parents had made me stick with it and enforced a regular practice." There are masses of studies showing that the disciplined approach music requires results in children who do better generally in school and later careers and overall life satisfaction.

IMHO measuring the impact of environment on traits like Openness to Experience seems difficult to me, even with identical twins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_to_experience

As for instruments - my older sister practiced piano from age 7 to 14. A professor of music assessed her and was in awe of her talent. She trained dilligently but lost interest as a teen. She is a public prosecutor now.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by Otto Kretschmer

2 minutes ago, TheVat said:

While I mostly agree on this, I would note that a mild exception often needs to be made with musical instruments. It does sometimes take a nudge from a parent to get across the concept that regular practice is vital in mastering an instrument and playing in an ensemble. Usually if the child has some affinity for the instrument, not much "force" is needed, but there is a small element of coercion - if you want to keep having lessons, then we need to have a regular practice time each day. My wife, a professional musician and music teacher, tries to have this learning be more carrots and less stick - e.g. mastering a piece of music they like, and having recitals. The child wants to do well in the recital, then they are motivated to practice. If that does not motivate them, then it is likely they wouldn't have the personality for longterm study of an instrument or ensemble playing. The only students she has recommended ending lessons to the parents were those who just didn't want to bother with practice.

My point is that I've met people who told me, "I took piano for a few months, and I didn't practice much. Now I wish my parents had made me stick with it and enforced a regular practice." There are masses of studies showing that the disciplined approach music requires results in children who do better generally in school and later careers and overall life satisfaction.

This is also true of all manner of skills a child learns, from multiplication tables to French vocabulary, or sport. There is a certain amount of hard work needed to achieve mastery and the child has to realise that. Fortunately, children are quite good at that sort of thing and generally do understand and accept it without a great deal of “forcing”.

12 hours ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

I mean raising kids to have high Openness to Experience, one of the Big Five personality traits. It includes several traits: intellectual curiosity, aesthetics, fantasy, adventurousness, feelings, values.

In other words, children who, when they become adults, constantly self-educate (out of genuine curiosity), can have deep discussions about the theory of evolution, macroeconomics and political theory alike, have good imagination, appreciate art and beauty, are open to new and unconventional value systems etc. The crucial period is childhood and adolescence when neuroplasticity is much higher than in an adult.

The crucial point is that the upbringing cannot be forceful. Forcing a child/teen to do anything will most likely backfire when they get older. It's also morally wrong for me, my parents never forced me to do anything and I cannot imagine forcing my future kids either

First a question.

How old is the child or are the children you have in mind ?

There is no general answer to this question, every child is different with different needs and these needs change as the child grows eventually to approach adulthood.

So for instance some forcing is necessary. This is the reason mothers (and hopefully fathers) hold their your child's hand tightly, when waiting at the roadside to cross.

The younger the child is the more likely it is to be suddenly distracted. Sometimes this does not matter, but no one want their child run over.

Parents should also offer a chance to try out all sorts of different activities and passtimes and be prepared for any given child to like some and dislike others. So you buy say some roller skates for birthday or christmas, and they are used a few times then forgotten. Do they like dolls or dogs ? Swimming or reading ? and so on.

You can reinforce the likes and quietly drop at least some of the dislikes.

But is is also necessary to discourage antisocial or other (edit oops) undesireable behaviour, especially watch out for cliques that try to override adult guidance.

Hope this is helpful.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by studiot