19 hours ago, Sarae.the.wannabe.chemist2 said:

Who created linguistic systems that we use today?

Children.

19 hours ago, Sarae.the.wannabe.chemist2 said:

Was Eden real or metaphorical?

Eden is what we dream of, it's a powerful image, something to strive for; if I do everything according to the rules then my reward is contentment, for as long as I'm aware.

On 6/13/2025 at 2:18 PM, swansont said:

But the issue is compatibility. Religion has free reign over spiritual matters, but interpretation of physical/materialistic ones are constrained by science and empirical evidence.

Yes, compatibility. So why should religion be compatible with science, but you have an excuse for science in the form of evidence? There is evidence of the existing of the soul - you, having your body, your thoughts, your ability to observe your thoughts, your ability to feel and to think about feelings! But modern science is not interested in this approach. And imposes its views on religion. 

But if scientists don't want to take this approach, it doesn't mean there is no evidence! Everything depends on the instruments. 

Just please don't say that science is not compatible with religion.

Edited June 15Jun 15 by m_m

8 minutes ago, m_m said:

There is evidence of the existing of the soul

Only if you define soul so broadly that it becomes useless and without meaning

8 minutes ago, m_m said:

Yes, compatibility. So why should religion be compatible with science,

It isn't. Science is a method for finding out about the Universe, Religion tells us what the Universe is and in the Abrahamic religions, tells us how we should live.

13 minutes ago, m_m said:

There is evidence of the existing of the soul

I disagree.

13 minutes ago, m_m said:

having your body, your thoughts, your ability to observe your thoughts, your ability to feel and to think about feelings

Yes, via an evolved brain.

15 minutes ago, m_m said:

(science) imposes its views on religion. 

What science has discovered disproves many Biblical claims. Some scientists have pushed back on religious groups that have and are imposing themselves on science education.

18 minutes ago, m_m said:

But if scientists don't want to take this approach, it doesn't mean there is no evidence! Everything depends on the instruments. 

Since Science is concerned with the natural world and relies on empirical data, while religion relies on the supernatural, personal experience and revelation, science and religion will never take the same approach.

11 minutes ago, iNow said:

Only if you define soul so broadly that it becomes useless and without meaning

There is no definition of intelligence, for example, but people decided that it can be artificial. There is no definition of consciousness, but people say that it's a brain function. And so on.

5 minutes ago, m_m said:

There is no definition of intelligence,

Everyone agrees there is intelligence. There are different methods of assessment, measurements that are active areas of research but it exists, whatever way we define it.

7 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Since Science is concerned with the natural world and relies on empirical data, while religion relies on the supernatural, personal experience and revelation, science and religion will never take the same approach.

Everything depends on the approach. Yes, our body is supernatural. Because we don't control processes in our body.

2 minutes ago, m_m said:

Yes, our body is supernatural.

No, many many biochemical pathways, organelles, cells, tissues, and organs have been dissected, studied, worked out and manipulated by scientists. All natural.

5 minutes ago, m_m said:

Because we don't control processes in our body.

Our brain does that, an organ consisting of cells, neurones, blood, neurotransmitters etc. All natural.

56 minutes ago, m_m said:

Yes, compatibility. So why should religion be compatible with science, but you have an excuse for science in the form of evidence? There is evidence of the existing of the soul - you, having your body, your thoughts, your ability to observe your thoughts, your ability to feel and to think about feelings! But modern science is not interested in this approach. And imposes its views on religion. 

But if scientists don't want to take this approach, it doesn't mean there is no evidence! Everything depends on the instruments. 

Just please don't say that science is not compatible with religion.

Requiring evidence is hardly an excuse.

Modern science isn’t interested because it’s not evidence, unless (as iNow implies) you come up with a proper definition of a soul. We can study neurological phenomenon, and learn about memory and thought, etc.

Science doesn’t impose its view on religion. Religion is free to ignore science (and many of its adherents do so). But it seems that religion (or its adherents) wants the endorsement of science in order to leverage the credibility it has, and no, you don’t get that unless you actually follow the rules of science. Religion is free to try - nobody is stopping it - but, as with any hypothesis, success is not guaranteed.

33 minutes ago, m_m said:

Everything depends on the approach. Yes, our body is supernatural. Because we don't control processes in our body.

We don’t control gravity, either. That’s not the issue. It’s whether the processes follow rules we can try and determine, and they do.

1 hour ago, m_m said:

There is no definition of intelligence, for example

Incorrect. There are multiple definitions of intelligence, and that’s certainly a challenge.

However, you are the one suggesting a soul exists so this isn’t red herring and you are merely distracting from the fact that you lack a broadly accepted and falsifiable definition of soul.

50 minutes ago, swansont said:

Science doesn’t impose its view on religion.

But let's look at the name of this topic: Christianity Compatible with Science of the Age of the Earth, Evolution etc. It looks like one must take the age of Earth and evolution for granted. Like some group of people decides for others what they are compatible with. How come?!

1 hour ago, swansont said:

We don’t control gravity, either

I am talking about our body, how we move, why we have pain, healing processes, etc.

1 hour ago, pinball1970 said:

Our brain does that

Isn't our brain situated in our head, and our head is a part of our body? So, our brain IS our body. Why do people separate the brain from the body?

48 minutes ago, iNow said:

distracting from the fact that you lack a broadly accepted and falsifiable definition of soul.

A physician did try and measure the soul by taking readings immediately before and after death in 1907.

It was pretty much rejected by the scientific community.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment

2 minutes ago, m_m said:

But let's look at the name of this topic: Christianity Compatible with Science of the Age of the Earth, Evolution etc. It looks like one must take the age of Earth and evolution for granted. Like some group of people decides for others what they are compatible with. How come?!

You are free to decide the earth is ~10k years old. Nobody is stopping you.

The determination from science is quite different. That they are incompatible is not the decision of anyone, it’s simply a fact that the numbers disagree. Science has the credibility of tremendous success on its side.

2 minutes ago, m_m said:

I am talking about our body, how we move, why we have pain, healing processes, etc.

You don’t control how you move? Sorry about that, but that’s not typical.

Why we have pain and how we heal are things that we can investigate scientifically, and have done so extensively.

16 minutes ago, m_m said:

Isn't our brain situated in our head, and our head is a part of our body

Yes, brain, head and body all natural biological features.

17 minutes ago, m_m said:

So, our brain IS our body

Part of our body.

18 minutes ago, m_m said:

Why do people separate the brain from the body?

What people? What do you mean separate? The brain is simply part of our body as stated.

52 minutes ago, iNow said:

Incorrect. There are multiple definitions of intelligence, and that’s certainly a challenge.

Doesn't help. If there are multiple definitions, this doesn't mean that intelligence can be artificial. This is the substitution of concepts. What is worse, some people say "This dumb AI", or "AI is dangerous". Just think of it: intelligence is dangerous, or dumb intelligence...

What is more worse, scientists keep silence, nodding, yes, artificial intelligence..

I just think we're slowly approaching the abyss.

Edited June 15Jun 15 by m_m

We’re not talking about intelligence.

We’re not talking about AI.

You said there’s definitely a soul. You haven’t defined it nor offered evidence.

Stop evading and putting up red herrings.

5 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Part of our body.

The brain is situated in the body. It's an organ in the body.

1 minute ago, iNow said:

We’re not talking about intelligence.

We’re not talking about AI.

You contradict yourself. AI is artificial intelligence. People say, that intelligence can be artificial. And everyone agrees.

Edited June 15Jun 15 by m_m

5 minutes ago, m_m said:

The brain is situated in the body.

If you prefer.

It is a natural biological feature i.e. NOT supernatural.

1 minute ago, pinball1970 said:

If you prefer.

It is a natural biological feature i.e. NOT supernatural.

Can you control processes in your body? digestion, blood circulation, heart bit?

3 minutes ago, m_m said:

Can you control processes in your body? digestion, blood circulation, heart bit?

To an extent depending on whether I am running, holding my breath, eating, fasting, taking medication, giving blood, taking a nap.

What's your point?

Do you think biochemistry and physiology are supernatural?

Cell biology, molecular biology, pharmacology and digestion and respiration are not supernatural either.

Those processes are well understood and taught to undergraduates.

2 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

To an extent depending on whether I am running, holding my breath, eating, fasting, taking medication, giving blood, taking a nap.

What's your point?

Do you think biochemistry and physiology are supernatural?

I asked about digestion, blood circulation, heart bit.

My point is that our body is not just material flesh. It's evidence that soul exists.

Edited June 15Jun 15 by m_m

39 minutes ago, m_m said:

My point is that our body is not just material flesh. It's evidence that soul exists.

Not to anyone who has studied physiology.

Just a question, if heart beat, BPM is supernatural how come I can slow it down with a beta blocker? How come I can speed it up with adrenaline?

40 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Not to anyone who has studied physiology.

Just a question, if heart beat, BPM is supernatural how come I can slow it down with a beta blocker? How come I can speed it up with adrenaline?

I mean control your heart bit, control by your will or intention. When you raise your arm, what makes you do this? Your thoughts, your will? What is that will? Is it a brain function?

How do our muscles work?

Seneca, Letter 11:On the blush of modesty

"And I feel sure that his habit of blushing will stay with him after he has strengthened his character, stripped off all his faults, and become wise. For by no wisdom can natural weaknesses of the body be removed. That which is implanted and inborn can be toned down by training, but not overcome.

The steadiest speaker, when before the public, often breaks into a perspiration, as if he had wearied or over-heated himself; some tremble in the knees when they rise to speak; I know of some whose teeth chatter, whose tongues falter, whose lips quiver.

Training and experience can never shake off this habit; nature exerts her own power and through such a weakness makes her presence known even to the strongest. I know that the blush, too, is a habit of this sort, spreading suddenly over the faces of the most dignified men. It is, indeed more prevalent in youth, because of the warmer blood and the sensitive countenance; nevertheless, both seasoned men and aged men are affected by it. Some are most dangerous when they redden, as if they were letting all their sense of shame escape. Sulla, when the blood mantled his cheeks, was in his fiercest mood.

...

As I remarked, Wisdom can never remove this habit; for if she could rub out all our faults, she would be mistress of the universe. Whatever is assigned to us by the terms of our birth and the blend in our constitutions, will stick with us, no matter how hard or how long the soul may have tried to master itself.

..."

We don't control blush. Or maybe Seneca thought about different trifles?

Anyway, I don't want to take someone's topic over.

21 minutes ago, m_m said:

Is it a brain function?

We got there.

Yes the brain controls the body. The brain which is part of our body and inside our skull is a natural, biological feature of the human body.

Brain surgeons do surgery on it, drugs affect it, injury affects it, learning changes it, disease can destroy it.

All natural.

25 minutes ago, m_m said:

We don't control blush.

That is because it is involuntary like snoring, hormone secretion, oxidative phosphorylation, acid reflux, peristalsis, protein synthesis, muscle cramps, immune response, hiccups and plenty of other understood perfectly natural phenomena.

28 minutes ago, m_m said:

Anyway, I don't want to take someone's topic over.

You could start a new thread? Regarding the evidence you have for biology being supernatural?

Edited June 15Jun 15 by pinball1970

16 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

That is because it is involuntary

Very nice