15 minutes ago, swansont said:

It’s the ones that don’t that I was talking about

In my experience of (European mainstream) Christianity, fear of eternal damnation plays a vanishingly small role in moulding people’s attitudes and behaviour. Preaching is mostly about the love of God and our obligation to love one another and what that means. Hellfire sermons seem a rather quaint, c.19th concept. But I admit I do not have experience of wacky sects in the US Bible Belt. The examples of notable hellfire preachers in the Wiki article seem to bear this, being either from long ago or in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_preaching

It was different in medieval times, I think. In those days life was short and uncertain, and death could come at any moment, so people may well have felt divine judgement was just around the corner.

Edited June 30Jun 30 by exchemist

8 minutes ago, exchemist said:

In my experience of (European mainstream) Christianity, fear of eternal damnation plays a vanishingly small role in moulding people’s attitudes and behaviour. Preaching is mostly about the love of God and our obligation to love one another and what that means. Hellfire sermons seem a rather quaint, c.19th concept. But I admit I do not have experience of wacky sects in the US Bible Belt. The examples of notable hellfire preachers in the Wiki article seem to bear this, being either from long ago or in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_preaching

It was different in medieval times, I think. In those days life was short and uncertain, and death could come at any moment, so people may well have felt divine judgement was just around the corner.

That would fit with the finding that legal punishment doesn’t deter crime, except that it’s not like not thinking you’ll get caught comes into play. Anyway, the description “god-fearing Christian” and hearing people say “If I weren’t a Christian I’d <do something>” suggests otherwise.

Then again, people rationalize doing bad things all the time, and doing them in the name of god is part of that.

1 minute ago, swansont said:

That would fit with the finding that legal punishment doesn’t deter crime, except that it’s not like not thinking you’ll get caught comes into play. Anyway, the description “god-fearing Christian” and hearing people say “If I weren’t a Christian I’d <do something>” suggests otherwise.

Then again, people rationalize doing bad things all the time, and doing them in the name of god is part of that.

Yes I think “God-fearing” needs to be read in the context of language at the time of the Authorised Version. Fear of God meant awe and respect as well as being frightened or being in terror.

I have never bought the argument of some that, but for this “fear” , they would go around murdering, raping and stealing. What kind of monsters are they claiming to be? It’s ridiculous.

I'm sorry, I can't help myself. What morality are you talking about, if you have to survive?

31 minutes ago, m_m said:

I'm sorry, I can't help myself. What morality are you talking about, if you have to survive?

Well we all have to survive, so that hardly narrows the field much.

Just a thought, being reasonable, co-operative can form part of ESS, Evolutionary Stable Strategy, being a sucker or a complete selfish meanie does not work out that well.

I will refer you to John Maynard Smith and his work.

51 minutes ago, m_m said:

I'm sorry, I can't help myself.

We've noticed that. You don't really make the effort to learn anything, is all I'm saying.

On 6/29/2025 at 4:11 PM, pinball1970 said:

I read his bio. Do I need him? For this discussion? I have read Hitchens, he is more contemporary.

Anyway I can certainly state my case as an atheist without Nietzsche, he is not part of my story.

I think that he feared our, by which I mean humanity rather than the individual, decent into nihilism without a god of sorts.

And the media interfears with our natural sense of fairness; much like when in a car and one is cut-up or otherwise treated discourteously; one is disconnected from a first person understanding of the situation and in consequence one is much less likely to wave out, the poor b'stard that's been waiting for 10 mins to join the trafic.

The parable of the madman - Nietsche

"Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!"---As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter."

On 6/29/2025 at 12:46 PM, Phi for All said:

I don't understand why that's "funny". The default for humans is not murdering each other, and that predates all religions. Same with stealing, you aren't supposed to take things that aren't yours. We didn't need Abraham's god to tell us this.

There is an awful lot of evidence that we survived our prehistory just fine without the 10C. Perhaps the moral codes of the early atheists were copied by Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam?

I don't disagree with your analysis, but that calls into question whether religious folk actually (ultimately) derive their moral codes from their religion.

On 6/29/2025 at 4:52 PM, swansont said:

But if the religious folks knew for sure that there was no supreme being and no eternal damnation, would their behavior change? How much of the behavior is driven by fear of divine judgement/punishment?

If I understand you correctly you're stipulating that these religious folks aren't, in fact, actually religious (any more). Just about all of the religious people I know personally, have a mile wide and inch deep religiosity.

4 hours ago, LuckyR said:

I don't disagree with your analysis, but that calls into question whether religious folk actually (ultimately) derive their moral codes from their religion.

If I understand you correctly you're stipulating that these religious folks aren't, in fact, actually religious (any more). Just about all of the religious people I know personally, have a mile wide and inch deep religiosity.

'Don't judge people or you will be judged' I believe that was said in one or more of the bible's, the modern equivalent is a little ditty about 'assume'.

5 hours ago, LuckyR said:

If I understand you correctly you're stipulating that these religious folks aren't, in fact, actually religious (any more).

No, I’m proposing a hypothetical scenario where there’s no belief; no reason to be religious.

5 hours ago, LuckyR said:

Just about all of the religious people I know personally, have a mile wide and inch deep religiosity.

Like too many people, I think. All talk, very little action.