A Person Who Exists Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 Since Google physicists created the first time crystal, I've been wondering if this new state of matter could be a source of infinite energy. Could a machine be built that can harvest the energy of a time crystal in some form? (I'm in middle school, so I don't have much experience with physics) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 For reference: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04257-w Quote Remarkably, it was recently predicted that out-of-equilibrium systems can exhibit novel dynamical phases that may otherwise be forbidden by equilibrium thermodynamics, a paradigmatic example being the discrete time crystal (DTC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 Welcome to SFN AFAIK a time crystal is predicated on no energy loss, so you’d destroy it by removing energy from it. Like taking energy out of a pendulum - it would stop ticking. It certainly doesn’t generate any energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 29 minutes ago, A Person Who Exists said: Since Google physicists created the first time crystal, I've been wondering if this new state of matter could be a source of infinite energy. Could a machine be built that can harvest the energy of a time crystal in some form? (I'm in middle school, so I don't have much experience with physics) No I don't think so. See the Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_crystal and especially this passage: Time crystals do not violate the laws of thermodynamics: energy in the overall system is conserved, such a crystal does not spontaneously convert thermal energy into mechanical work, and it cannot serve as a perpetual store of work. But it may change perpetually in a fixed pattern in time for as long as the system can be maintained. They possess "motion without energy"[16]—their apparent motion does not represent conventional kinetic energy.[17] I'll admit I know nothing about time crystals apart from what I have just quickly read, but it looks to me as if these things exhibit motion in their ground state. The definition of a ground state is it is the lowest energy state allowed for the system. From that it follows that energy cannot be extracted from the system (unless you break the system up, I guess, which would be a one-off exercise). You have much the same thing with the zero point energy in a harmonic oscillator, or, to give a real example, in the vibrational ground state of a diatomic molecule. There is still residual motion, even at absolute zero (hence "zero point"), but none of it can be extracted as energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Person Who Exists Posted April 25 Author Share Posted April 25 17 hours ago, exchemist said: No I don't think so. See the Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_crystal and especially this passage: Time crystals do not violate the laws of thermodynamics: energy in the overall system is conserved, such a crystal does not spontaneously convert thermal energy into mechanical work, and it cannot serve as a perpetual store of work. But it may change perpetually in a fixed pattern in time for as long as the system can be maintained. They possess "motion without energy"[16]—their apparent motion does not represent conventional kinetic energy.[17] However, there still is change and the time crystal oscillates in a perpetual pattern. If you figure out the pattern and the relative locations (Point A to Point B of the time crystal's motion), couldn't you set up two checkpoints that harvest this change in distance, which will go infinitely? (I have no clue how this will work, I'm not even in high school) If I am being an idiot, be free to call me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 It’s not a matter of you being an idiot. The details here involve advanced physics. Quantum oscillations don’t involve motion as you normally think about it - it’s not like a pendulum, where you can make the amplitude a little smaller. In quantum systems the energy differences are like steps, and in the ground state there isn’t a lower step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Person Who Exists Posted April 25 Author Share Posted April 25 At what grade/level of experience do you learn the math and complex stuff needed? (I'm getting bored in school, so this seems fun and will help me with becoming a theoretical physicist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 hour ago, A Person Who Exists said: However, there still is change and the time crystal oscillates in a perpetual pattern. If you figure out the pattern and the relative locations (Point A to Point B of the time crystal's motion), couldn't you set up two checkpoints that harvest this change in distance, which will go infinitely? (I have no clue how this will work, I'm not even in high school) If I am being an idiot, be free to call me out. What does it mean to “harvest” a direction? You must mean harvesting energy, surely? If this is a quantum system in its ground state, you cannot extract energy from it without breaking up the system. You have a form of zero point motion. You can’t extract energy from that. But if you have not yet learned any quantum theory you may find this hard to understand. All I can suggest is to read a bit, e.g. this link: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/hosc4.html Don’t be scared by the maths, just read the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) 21 hours ago, A Person Who Exists said: At what grade/level of experience do you learn the math and complex stuff needed? (I'm getting bored in school, so this seems fun and will help me with becoming a theoretical physicist) Usually first and second year QM. However I should mention those boring lessons your getting now will apply at every level of physics. In particular any physics involving kinematics. However this prevent you from learning QM early on. Edited April 26 by Mordred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 21 hours ago, exchemist said: You have a form of zero point motion What exchemist is referring to here is that the lowest energy state in quantum mechanics doesn’t have zero kinetic energy, unlike in classical systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 On 4/25/2024 at 4:21 PM, A Person Who Exists said: At what grade/level of experience do you learn the math and complex stuff needed? (I'm getting bored in school, so this seems fun and will help me with becoming a theoretical physicist) Recommend paying attention to the physics of waves. This will help you a lot with visualising what goes in quantum systems. Also matrices and complex numbers in mathematics, for later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) Add kinematics as it's used in every physics theory including the entirety of the SM model f=ma always applies for example. Edited April 26 by Mordred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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