Data Reveals Building Block for Life on Saturn Moon

[Alex_Krycek]

Fascinating article here, relating to phosphorous being found on one of Saturn's moons, Enceladus.  Phosphorous is a key building block of life and is located in Enceladus' subsurface oceans.   Data was beamed back recently by the Cassini Mission. 

Here's the article from JPL:  https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-cassini-data-reveals-building-block-for-life-in-enceladus-ocean  This page has a cool interactive walkthrough which describes how they first noticed the plumes of ice crystals, then identified the sub-surface oceans which likely contain liquid H20, and how confirmation was established as to the presence of phosphorous. 

The paper:  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05987-9

Once humanity truly becomes a space faring species, I believe we will find that life on other planets is the norm, not the exception.  If only Nasa were allocated more than a minuscule 22 billion USD per year...which is less than 1% of the annual budget.  

_{Seen as a bright arc in this 2006 observation by Cassini, Saturn’s E ring is fed with icy particles from Enceladus’ plume, creating wispy fingers of bright material that is backlit by the Sun. The shadowed hemisphere of the moon can be seen as a dark dot inside the ring.}

 _{Credit: NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute}

_{-----------------------}

 

Oops.  Wrong place.

Perhaps a moderator can move to Science News?

Edited June 15, 2023 by Alex_Krycek

[swansont]

58 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Once humanity truly becomes a space faring species, I believe we will find that life on other planets is the norm

They did not discover life on Enceladus, or anywhere beyond earth, and state this in the article.

[Alex_Krycek]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

They did not discover life on Enceladus, or anywhere beyond earth, and state this in the article.

I know that.  I was stating my opinion.

[exchemist]

10 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Fascinating article here, relating to phosphorous being found on one of Saturn's moons, Enceladus.  Phosphorous is a key building block of life and is located in Enceladus' subsurface oceans.   Data was beamed back recently by the Cassini Mission. 

Here's the article from JPL:  https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-cassini-data-reveals-building-block-for-life-in-enceladus-ocean  This page has a cool interactive walkthrough which describes how they first noticed the plumes of ice crystals, then identified the sub-surface oceans which likely contain liquid H20, and how confirmation was established as to the presence of phosphorous. 

The paper:  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05987-9

Once humanity truly becomes a space faring species, I believe we will find that life on other planets is the norm, not the exception.  If only Nasa were allocated more than a minuscule 22 billion USD per year...which is less than 1% of the annual budget.  

_{Seen as a bright arc in this 2006 observation by Cassini, Saturn’s E ring is fed with icy particles from Enceladus’ plume, creating wispy fingers of bright material that is backlit by the Sun. The shadowed hemisphere of the moon can be seen as a dark dot inside the ring.}

 _{Credit: NASA/JPL/Space Science} 

_{-----------------------}

 

Oops.  Wrong place.

Perhaps a moderator can move to Science News?

OK so the water is alkaline, due to dissolved bicarbonate and carbonate and this favours leaching into solution of orthophosphate - which they think they have detected.

(The element is phosphorus by the way. Phosphorous is an adjective like phosphoric, e.g. phosphorous acid is H₃PO₃, whereas phosphoric acid is H₃PO₄.)

The presence of phosphate is explained as due to wholly inorganic mineral processes, i.e. there is no suggestion its presence is any kind of signature for life on Enceladus. 

[Alex_Krycek]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

OK so the water is alkaline, due to dissolved bicarbonate and carbonate and this favours leaching into solution of orthophosphate - which they think they have detected.

(The element is phosphorus by the way. Phosphorous is an adjective like phosphoric, e.g. phosphorous acid is H₃PO₃, whereas phosphoric acid is H₃PO₄.)

The presence of phosphate is explained as due to wholly inorganic mineral processes, i.e. there is no suggestion its presence is any kind of signature for life on Enceladus. 

NASA would beg to differ...

"Phosphorus, the least abundant of the essential elements necessary for biological processes, hadn’t been detected until now. The element is a building block for DNA, which forms chromosomes and carries genetic information, and is present in the bones of mammals, cell membranes, and ocean-dwelling plankton. Phosphorus is also a fundamental part of energy-carrying molecules present in all life on Earth. Life wouldn’t be possible without it."

Edited June 16, 2023 by Alex_Krycek

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Alex_Krycek said:

NASA would beg to differ...

"Phosphorus, the least abundant of the essential elements necessary for biological processes, hadn’t been detected until now. The element is a building block for DNA, which forms chromosomes and carries genetic information, and is present in the bones of mammals, cell membranes, and ocean-dwelling plankton. Phosphorus is also a fundamental part of energy-carrying molecules present in all life on Earth. Life wouldn’t be possible without it."

What do you think NASA is differing about?

The paper says “Our observational results, together with laboratory analogue experiments, suggest that phosphorus is readily available in Enceladus’s ocean in the form of orthophosphates”

The spelling correction is proper, and they are not claiming that life exists there.

[Genady]

Phosphorus is used by life. Life is not used by phosphorus.

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

NASA would beg to differ...

"Phosphorus, the least abundant of the essential elements necessary for biological processes, hadn’t been detected until now. The element is a building block for DNA, which forms chromosomes and carries genetic information, and is present in the bones of mammals, cell membranes, and ocean-dwelling plankton. Phosphorus is also a fundamental part of energy-carrying molecules present in all life on Earth. Life wouldn’t be possible without it."

So what? All that says is phosphorus is needed for terrestrial biochemistry.

If you actually read the paper, and take in what it says, it is quite clear about the mineral processes that lead to orthophosphate, i.e. the anions of the inorganic acid phosphoric acid, being present in the water.  The finding is interesting in that people had thought one of the difficulties in life getting going elsewhere might be the relative lack of phosphorus compounds. In the case of Enceladus there seems not to be this deficiency. That's all. 

[Alex_Krycek]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

The spelling correction is proper, and they are not claiming that life exists there.

I don't disagree.  They're presenting Phosphorus as a building block of life, which is all I was pointing out.  

 

[swansont]

1 minute ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I don't disagree.  They're presenting Phosphorus as a building block of life, which is all I was pointing out.  

 

Then why would NASA beg to differ?

[Alex_Krycek]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

Then why would NASA beg to differ?

6 hours ago, exchemist said:

there is no suggestion its presence is any kind of signature for life on Enceladus. 

They seem to be suggesting it's a building block for life, which runs contrary to this statement.

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Alex_Krycek said:

They seem to be suggesting it's a building block for life, which runs contrary to this statement.

Don't be ridiculous, it doesn't at all. A building block is not evidence of a building. A brick is a brick, not a house.  

Phosphates are just one ingredient, of many, that would be needed to support terrestrial style biochemistry.

Edited June 16, 2023 by exchemist

[Alex_Krycek]

10 hours ago, exchemist said:

Don't be ridiculous, it doesn't at all. A building block is not evidence of a building. A brick is a brick, not a house.  

Phosphates are just one ingredient, of many, that would be needed to support terrestrial style biochemistry.

Again, I was just referencing NASA's framing of the discovery.

They used the phrase "building block for life" in the headline. 

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Again, I was just referencing NASA's framing of the discovery.

They used the phrase "building block for life" in the headline. 

Which is not a signature for the presence of life.

[Alex_Krycek]

6 hours ago, exchemist said:

Which is not a signature for the presence of life.

Important distinction, thanks.

Semantics aside - it's a compelling article and yet another reason why NASA should have a significantly bigger budget for missions like this.  Missions to land on the surface of  Enceladus and somehow drill into the sub-oceans with the goal of launching a deep sea sea submersible similar to DSV ALVIN.