dimreepr Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 21 hours ago, Genady said: DISAGREE!!! Not 'ultimately the same'. Rather, somewhat similar. Mostly, similar in shape, like the snowflakes. Unlike the snowflakes, we are very different inside. The point of the metaphor is, we both start out the same shape, it's the enviroment that alters the shape; as I've mentioned before a bully is made not born. So what I'm saying is, given the right enviroment we're all capable of anything* a human is capable of both very, very good and very, very, very bad and however much you deny it, it's also true of you and me. * almost, there are caveats but that's for a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 11, 2023 Author Share Posted February 11, 2023 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: we both start out the same shape No, we do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVat Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 The question of genetic predispositions towards personality traits, sociopathy, etc is another thread, right? Most people are not antisocial, and will assume duties of care presented as that society's ethos. Some have an "overachiever" personality trait and may extend their active care beyond what's required, other are "slackers," and will see if they can get away with some neglect (often with justifications along the lines of "I'm just one person, not much I can do" or "that's government's job.") To me, a classic contrast in the US attends the nuisance task of recycling. Some, if their city only has a few centers with dumpsters to take your recyclables to, will be happy to sort their stuff, pack it into the car, and haul it there. They feel good, doing something good for the larger community and environment. Others chuck everything in regular trash, can't be bothered, and say "the city needs to give us all curbside bins, period!" (often the same people who say, "clean air, pfft! I'll get a greener car when Big Auto makes one in my price range and my precise specs. I'll get a bike when they've got their own special pathways and the boss installs showers at work and allows casual dress and blah blah blah...") Some people do seem to have a larger sense of collective action and benefit than others. And this also relates to how much one buys into the way capitalism peddles "convenience" as a commodity. Americans are subjected to pernicious levels of this, as if having everything be as easy as possible were some ultimate virtue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 11, 2023 Author Share Posted February 11, 2023 Can we care about and act for the Earth as a whole rather than about and for the people, current or future? Like, if I see a beautiful painting getting destroyed by a flood, I'd want to save the painting because it is so beautiful, not necessarily because of the future generations that might see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 23 hours ago, Genady said: No, we do not. 16 hours ago, Genady said: Can we care about and act for the Earth as a whole rather than about and for the people, current or future? Like, if I see a beautiful painting getting destroyed by a flood, I'd want to save the painting because it is so beautiful, not necessarily because of the future generations that might see it. Well, we are all capable of caring for something other than ourselves, even the really evil barstewards. And as @TheVat alludes, our cultural bias is the most insidious and, I think, the most difficult to recognise; because, as we know, the box is notoriusly difficult to think outside of. 20 hours ago, TheVat said: The question of genetic predispositions towards personality traits, sociopathy, etc is another thread, right? Indeed, the waters are muddy enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 12, 2023 Author Share Posted February 12, 2023 2 hours ago, dimreepr said: our cultural bias is the most insidious and, I think, the most difficult to recognise; I'd like to recognize my cultural bias, as much as possible. Where should I look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 21 hours ago, Genady said: I'd like to recognize my cultural bias, as much as possible. Where should I look? I'm starting to run out of ways to say the same thing; let me have a think. 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 13, 2023 Author Share Posted February 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: I'm starting to run out of ways to say the same thing; let me have a think. 🤔 It might help if you say it straight rather than via a metaphor. If the thing is, that we are but a product of our environment, then you don't need to repeat it. Repetition will not convince me. If the thing is, that deep inside we are all the same - ditto. If the thing is, that every person is capable of everything - ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Genady said: It might help if you say it straight rather than via a metaphor. If the thing is, that we are but a product of our environment, then you don't need to repeat it. Repetition will not convince me. If the thing is, that deep inside we are all the same - ditto. If the thing is, that every person is capable of everything - ditto. History is my evidence; for instance, Hitler loved his dog, a very human thing, even for a full blown monster... Every person, that's survived into adulthood, started out with only one capability, sucking on a teat. Just because you can't see your bias, doesn't mean it's not there; you'd have to travel a mile in my shoes to understand mine. Imagine the sort of horrible existance Hitler must have suffered, that made him love dog's more than human's. I'm more inclined to have pity for him, while thanking <insert deity of choice, including the scientific definition.> that I'm not him. I do this by assuming his humanity, because he's the right shape. It's not about intellect, how else do you explain why every supervilan has a doctorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 13, 2023 Author Share Posted February 13, 2023 29 minutes ago, dimreepr said: History is my evidence; for instance, Hitler loved his dog, a very human thing, even for a full blown monster... This is only an evidence that even a full blown monster could have some human - but not exclusively human - things. 30 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Every person, that's survived into adulthood, started out with only one capability, sucking on a teat. Repetition. Wrong. Every person, that's survived into adulthood, started with a wide range of capabilities. 32 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Just because you can't see your bias, doesn't mean it's not there I don't think I can't see my bias. 33 minutes ago, dimreepr said: you'd have to travel a mile in my shoes to understand mine. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe there are other ways. 34 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Imagine the sort of horrible existance Hitler must have suffered, that made him love dog's more than human's. I can imagine this. I also can imagine a sort of sweet growing up, without any suffering, and also be made to love dogs more than humans. I also can imagine many other scenarios with that same outcome. 44 minutes ago, dimreepr said: I do this by assuming his humanity, because he's the right shape. Of course, he was a human, i.e., Homo sapiens, biologically. 41 minutes ago, dimreepr said: how else do you explain why every supervilan has a doctorate. I don't think that every supervillain does, but whoever does, it is only evidence that they had what was needed to get the doctorate. It does not say anything else about them. Even about their intellect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Genady said: Repetition. Wrong. Every person, that's survived into adulthood, started with a wide range of capabilities. Indeed, but fundamentally, you had to suck teat first... 😣 How many times... 1 hour ago, Genady said: I don't think I can't see my bias. Well, you would say that... 🙄 1 hour ago, Genady said: I don't think that every supervillain does, but whoever does, it is only evidence that they had what was needed to get the doctorate. It does not say anything else about them. Even about their intellect. Every one that counts... 🤞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 13, 2023 Author Share Posted February 13, 2023 57 minutes ago, dimreepr said: 2 hours ago, Genady said: I don't think I can't see my bias. Well, you would say that... 🙄 Not only that I can, I also do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Genady said: Not only that I can, I also do. Can you though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 13, 2023 Author Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: Can you though? The fact that I do is a proof that I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 Just now, Genady said: The fact that I do is a proof that I can do. Nope, it's evidence that you can't, proof is a very different question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 13, 2023 Author Share Posted February 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Nope, it's evidence that you can't, proof is a very different question. The fact that I do something is evidence that I can't do it? How come? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, Genady said: The fact that I do something is evidence that I can't do it? How come? Think about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 13, 2023 Author Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: Think about it... You too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Genady said: You too. Rito, boss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 20 hours ago, Genady said: Not only that I can, I also do. If that were true of every human, then how did Hitler raise an army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted February 14, 2023 Author Share Posted February 14, 2023 14 minutes ago, dimreepr said: If that were true of every human, then how did Hitler raise an army? Given a choice between one's life and one's family well-being on one hand, and well-being of some foreign, perhaps bad, people on the other, most choose the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 32 minutes ago, Genady said: Given a choice between one's life and one's family well-being on one hand, and well-being of some foreign, perhaps bad, people on the other, most choose the former. Yep, that's how... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsutton Posted April 28, 2023 Share Posted April 28, 2023 On 2/2/2023 at 1:38 PM, Genady said: I guess it means, every 'today' of your life. IOW, your horizon is your life time. Then why do you care about the climate change? People must care about the future or they would not make wills to ensure their estate and assets are passed to who that person wants,. or to donate to specific causes within their will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted April 28, 2023 Author Share Posted April 28, 2023 2 hours ago, paulsutton said: People must care about the future or they would not make wills to ensure their estate and assets are passed to who that person wants,. or to donate to specific causes within their will. This is a short-term future, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
npts2020 Posted May 3, 2023 Share Posted May 3, 2023 On 4/28/2023 at 5:13 PM, Genady said: This is a short-term future, isn't it? Depends on what is meant by "short term". To drosophila a human lifetime is an extremely long time. To the universe, all of human existence is very short period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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