Automated Traffic Enforcement Effectiveness (split from Politicians change Highway code...A poisoned chalice?)

[Phi for All]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:58 PM, StringJunky said:

If drivers are getting away with it, that might be down to the ever diminishing presence of the police on the roads.

I'm curious how much you've automated your traffic systems wrt law enforcement because of this. I think one of the best ways to defund police departments and make them more efficient is to take speeding and running red lights off their plates by having radar-type traps and cameras that send you a picture of you violating traffic these traffic laws.

If this is too far off-topic, I can start a different thread.

[studiot]

18 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm curious how much you've automated your traffic systems wrt law enforcement because of this. I think one of the best ways to defund police departments and make them more efficient is to take speeding and running red lights off their plates by having radar-type traps and cameras that send you a picture of you violating traffic these traffic laws.

If this is too far off-topic, I can start a different thread.

Traffic offences are not taken off the police plate.
What happens is that the police employ 'civilians' and computers to issue 'fixed penalty' notices, under their authority.
Civilians are cheaper than actual policemen and computer can be cheaper still (though they have hidden costs).
Yes many junctions where too many drivers try to 'catch the lights' before they change have cameras dedicated to this rather than speeding.

 

Does this help ?

[Phi for All]

22 minutes ago, studiot said:

Traffic offences are not taken off the police plate.
What happens is that the police employ 'civilians' and computers to issue 'fixed penalty' notices, under their authority.
Civilians are cheaper than actual policemen and computer can be cheaper still (though they have hidden costs).
Yes many junctions where too many drivers try to 'catch the lights' before they change have cameras dedicated to this rather than speeding.

 

Does this help ?

It does. In the US, there's a great deal of pushback against automated enforcement, and we have very little in my state. Politicians don't want to change existing codes to implement such measures. In fact, our state assembly has ruled that these measures can't be used unless you post a big sign warning offenders that they'll be ticketed even  without police presence: https://leg.colorado.gov/content/speed-photo-radar-and-red-light-cameras-automated-vehicle-identification-systems

Quote

AVIS cannot be used to detect a violation unless a sign is posted to notify the public that such a system is in use.  A penalty assessment notice or summons must be delivered within 90 days of the alleged violation.  Governmental entities are not permitted to enforce a penalty by immobilizing a vehicle or reporting it to the Division of Motor Vehicles.  No points may be assessed against an individual's driver license for a violation detected through the use of AVIS. 

 

[studiot]

I should have added two things.

The UK is one of the most camera monitored countries on Earth.

We do not have so many traffic signals (lights) as they use in Europe.
Most junctions are 'controlled'' by passive markings on the roads and signs mounted on posts,
And of course the rules of conduct embodied in the Highway Code.
There is even a section where these take over from lights,and tell the motorist what to do if the lights fail.

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I'm curious how much you've automated your traffic systems wrt law enforcement because of this. I think one of the best ways to defund police departments and make them more efficient is to take speeding and running red lights off their plates by having radar-type traps and cameras that send you a picture of you violating traffic these traffic laws.

If this is too far off-topic, I can start a different thread.

I live in a county of about 1m people  with 1073 serving officers (2020). That's the lowest ratio in the country. There seem to be cc cameras on all traffic light systems that I've seen in the city. Camera surveillance is very big in the UK, I think. We have about 9000 ANPR and 7000 speed cameras on the roads in the UK (4th highest globally).  It might be worth splitting off, Phi. I think the general feeling here, is that they are really more a revenue stream due to there locations, and that's why there are so many. The latter is anecdotal on my part from things I've read in the local and national news. In just London alone there are 500,000 government-run cctv cameras. 

Quote

The number of CCTV Cameras in the UK may be as many as 5.2 million, with 1 camera for every 13 people as the popularity of public surveillance, home CCTV and doorbell camera use increases. 96% of the total number of cameras in the UK are now operated by private businesses and homeowners. http://hrnews.co.uk/number-of-cctv-cameras-in-the-uk-reaches-5-2-million/

There's a few more statistics in that quote link. There appears to be a camera, of all types, for every 13 people. Hope that gives you a general idea.

I find it interesting how many people are caught commiting crimes by their own camera systems, of whatever sort, and people are buying them like they are going out of fashion; Alexas, car cameras, doorbell cameras, helmet cameras, baby cameras, etc. Mobile phones are also potentially perfect remote government spies,

Centralize all that data and Big Brother will truly be here. China is already implementing such an authoritarian nightmare. If you challenge the intrusion, that old chestnut "What have you got to hide?" will be thrown at you. The trail of data you leave behind you now, as you live your life, is endless.

Privacy is pretty much a myth now. It's a wide subject of conversation, and I'm definitely off the focus of this thread. We will all become immortal by virtue of our data profile. Happy days.

Edited January 31, 2022 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, studiot said:

We do not have so many traffic signals (lights) as they use in Europe.
Most junctions are 'controlled'' by passive markings on the roads and signs mounted on posts,
And of course the rules of conduct embodied in the Highway Code.
There is even a section where these take over from lights,and tell the motorist what to do if the lights fail.

In my experience, most folks follow the passive markings and the road laws to a certain extent, but inevitably there are those who drive the streets competitively and just do what they feel like, and others have to brake to avoid collisions with them (I shall call them Le Mans-ters). It's almost a guarantee here that if the traffic lights have all failed, Le Mans-ters are going to sew chaos every couple of minutes because they either don't know who's turn it is or don't care, and just go as soon as they reach the front of the line.

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

I think the general feeling here, is that they are really more a revenue stream due to there locations, and that's why there are so many.

That's the argument that shuts down any talk of implementation around here, that it's some kind of scam by the police to make money. To me, it just sounds like using a bigger net that catches more fish and frees up more fishermen to do the parts of the job the net can't handle. Even with ten times the police officers, they couldn't catch every violation the way the technology can.

Do you think the speed traps and red light cameras make people drive slower and take less risks when they know such tech is around? That would be ideal. Having fewer police officers around seems like a trend, and one that the Le Mans-ters are taking full advantage of. I was hoping to make it harder for unapologetic assholes to drive a vehicle on the roads with the rest of us who understand how pieces of a system should behave.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

In my experience, most folks follow the passive markings and the road laws to a certain extent, but inevitably there are those who drive the streets competitively and just do what they feel like, and others have to brake to avoid collisions with them (I shall call them Le Mans-ters). It's almost a guarantee here that if the traffic lights have all failed, Le Mans-ters are going to sew chaos every couple of minutes because they either don't know who's turn it is or don't care, and just go as soon as they reach the front of the line.

That's the argument that shuts down any talk of implementation around here, that it's some kind of scam by the police to make money. To me, it just sounds like using a bigger net that catches more fish and frees up more fishermen to do the parts of the job the net can't handle. Even with ten times the police officers, they couldn't catch every violation the way the technology can.

Do you think the speed traps and red light cameras make people drive slower and take less risks when they know such tech is around? That would be ideal. Having fewer police officers around seems like a trend, and one that the Le Mans-ters are taking full advantage of. I was hoping to make it harder for unapologetic assholes to drive a vehicle on the roads with the rest of us who understand how pieces of a system should behave.

I think ANPR cameras do a better job of speedsters because they calculate average speed between two distant cameras, rather than just the one camera capturing a single speed data point over a short distance. These can be easily circumvented by people familiar with speed camera locations by slowing down just in time. That's more a recipe for accidents and reckless driving because it puts people in two modes: fast and slow. ANPR cameras probably force more people to drive in a more steady fashion because the mental mathematics of getting around them is too difficult to work out in real-time.

Edited January 31, 2022 by StringJunky