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10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

And that works? I have yet to see it work in US legislation.

Yes, it works all the time. That's is how we got Infrastructure passed and how we've gotten this far with Build Back Better. Admittedly it works less well with gun laws as so many are on the extreme right, but it is how you get the people in the middle to move one direction or the other.

Edited by zapatos
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16 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Yes, it works all the time.

I sincerely hope you're right.

The infrastructure situation doesn't belong here, except perhaps as an illustrative example of what can be accomplished in the present political climate.

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14 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

 

The infrastructure situation doesn't belong here, except perhaps as an illustrative example of what can be accomplished in the present political climate.

You asked if reason worked. It's kind of hard to prove it does if I cannot use examples.

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26 minutes ago, zapatos said:

You asked if reason worked. It's kind of hard to prove it does if I cannot use examples.

Of course. You used it as an example and I accepted it as an example, but didn't think this was the appropriate venue to probe the details. 

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5 hours ago, iNow said:

This isn’t his position, though. You’re asking Zap to defend a stance he’s not here advocating.

He's suggesting that someone may have a reason. I would like to here it...is it a valid reason? If someone can give me a valid reason, then I'll listen.

5 hours ago, iNow said:

He’s correctly saying that change won’t come from a Aussie putting forth an argument rooted in personal incredulity… “I can’t see a reason” is a valid opinion, but does nothing to make things better.

Of course! I understand that some are so rooted in maintaining their position of power, that there could be mass shootings everyday and it still wouldn't change a thing. I also mentioned that people/voters get what they deserve, and that was misconstrued as getting shot or caught up in a mass shooting, rather then getting the politicians one elects, who are certainly responsible for the laws that allow this little punk to go free. 

5 hours ago, iNow said:

 Zap also said reason is needed more than emotive opinions, with is true to an extent, but Peterkin rightly pushed back on this. Human minds tend more often to be changed at a visceral emotional level, then rationalized after the fact with reason, IMO.

 Sometimes emotions can also put us on the right path. Australia's gun laws were implemented after our worst ever massacre in 1996 by an emotive Prime Minister, and the leader of a right wing party that I have never ever voted for, and given bypartisan support by both sides. Sometimes emotions= reason.

5 hours ago, iNow said:

Anyway, it’s clear that you don’t think any valid reasons exist for assault-style weapons to be owned and out on the streets and outside the military. So what… What happens next? Fair??

Yes, that's my position for what its worth (nothing) and while certainly probably your own position and also  that of Zapato, you two are in a better position to change things in your otherwise great country and our Ally. I don't know where you should or need to start, other then at the ballot box, but I don't believe that changing the status quo in your country is impossible, as it appears some seem to want me to believe. 

4 hours ago, Peterkin said:

What happens next? My guess is, nothing better. The present federal government is ... let's be generous and say, not quite strong enough to address either the gun issues or the racial rifts, while the conservative state governments have grown disproportionately powerful.

This is the least rational period of my lifetime - not only in the US, but globally - and quite possibly the least rational in modern history. You'd have to look back to the Reformation for so much volatile unreason.  I very much fear that what comes next is a far-right victory, one last feeding frenzy, followed by economic collapse - all of it accompanied by many senseless killings, everywhere. Then war, plague, famine - you know the drill.   

I have been wrong before. I hope I'm wrong now. 

Excuse me while I offer my own thoughts...While Biden is a nice old chap, with his heart in the right place, imo and as an outsider, he appears too old for the job. But at least under him, the US is gaining back some of the respect it lost under Trump.

Also again, on a more global scale, perhaps, just perhaps, this current noisy extreme right wing movement world wide, could very well be a balancing result being played out, by some of the nonsensical extreme left stuff being considered, not the least being political correctness and certain aspects of cancel culture and some associated  disproportionate reactions. eg: In fact a personal example. My common banter with people and strangers I happen to meet up with consists of calling them mate or Love. The same common banter is always returned in spades, and I have witnessed it constantly on the TV show, "The Chase" the British version with Bradley Walsh. 

IMO again, if this apparent rise of extreme right wing politics and violence is to be limited or anulled, the middle ground (hopefully where I am) and the left, must use reason and thought and sensibility. Certainly not with a sledge hammer and extreme views of our own. Just my 2 cents worth.

I'm sure you are wrong, and I'm also sure the world will in time rise above this philosophically inspired political nonsense, both left and right. But I also could be wrong.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, beecee said:

Also again, on a more global scale, perhaps, just perhaps, this current noisy extreme right wing movement world wide, could very well be a balancing result being played out, by some of the nonsensical extreme left stuff being considered, not the least being political correctness and certain aspects of cancel culture and some associated  disproportionate reactions.

Gun-violence, police raids and shootings, massive voter suppression, racial discrimination at all levels of society, increasing homelessness and child poverty, disinformation and grotesquely unfair application of existing bad laws is perhaps balanced by too much good manners? O-kay.... 

Edited by Peterkin
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8 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Gun-violence, police raids and shootings, massive voter suppression, racial discrimination at all levels of society, increasing homelessness and child poverty, disinformation and grotesquely unfair application of existing bad laws is perhaps balanced by too much good manners? O-kay.... 

Sorry, where did I mention anything about bad manners? Some political correctness is bordering on insane, as most agreed in another thread. I may as well destroy all my musical cd's. 

20 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Gun-violence, police raids and shootings, massive voter suppression, racial discrimination at all levels of society, increasing homelessness and child poverty, 

Vote in the politicians with enough intestinal fortitude that will support reasonable gun laws that can limit gun violence, eliminate voter suppression, stop racial discrimination, build more public housing and eliminate child poverty. Also on a more personal level, instead of rhetoric, there are orginizations where you can donate money to help with child poverty. Myself and my good wife already have two sponsored African children.

On Police raids and shootings, understand that Policing, along with prisons etc, are necessary evils, and what should be done, is stricter investigations and training of police, understanding that they take their lives in their hands everyday when they are out on the beat, and of course, they would be the first one's you would call if you were to be confronted by some approaching gun wielding maniac, or if your property was invaded. That would be an accurate statement would it not?

Edited by beecee
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1 hour ago, beecee said:

Some political correctness is bordering on insane, as most agreed in another thread.

Including one qualified psychologist, I know. I still don't see it as equal to the white supremacist agenda.   

1 hour ago, beecee said:

On Police raids and shootings, understand that Policing, along with prisons etc, are necessary evils, and what should be done, is stricter investigations and training of police, understanding that they take their lives in their hands everyday when they are out on the beat, and of course, they would be the first one's you would call if you were to be confronted by some approaching gun wielding maniac, or if your property was invaded. That would be an accurate statement would it not?

Yes - it would - in the circumstances you prescribe. Once everything you recommend has been implement, I'll revise my opinion according to the results.  

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34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Including one qualified psychologist, I know. I still don't see it as equal to the white supremacist agenda.   

Just because the loony right is screaming from the rooftops, is no reason for the loony left to go from the sublime to the ridiculous with regards to political correctness.

34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

 Yes - it would - in the circumstances you prescribe. Once everything you recommend has been implement, I'll revise my opinion according to the results.  

Whether you chose to revise your opinion or not, does not in anyway diminish the importance of the need of a well trained Police force, and the fact that they put there lives on the line everyday, irrespective of whether the circumstances mentioned have improved or not...

ps: We do have a thread more appropriate to discuss this on...probably off topic here.

Edited by beecee
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