Koni

nucleic acids size-expanded triple-bases !!!...

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My Triple DNA Bases model based on modified pyrene(C16H10) molecules has a issue with "Tautomerism" !!! (First Image)

So, I had to include the Tautomerism into my design !!! (Second Image)

 

 

Triple Helix DNA Bases_2.PNG

Triple Helix DNA Bases_3.PNG

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IF someone can see any mistake on my Theoretical design of the 2 molecules of the "TRIPLE DNA Bases" of a Hypothetical (Alien) "TRIPLE Helix DNA" please make a comment to Help me to correct and improve it !!!... or simple write me your thoughts about it !!!...

(THANK YOU for any post!!!...)

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The damage of "tautomerism" in the 2 TRIPLES DNA bases of my first Design was:

 

1. The one TRIPLET can be converted to the other TRIPLET, and vice versa, so instead of two TRIPLETS I was been left with only one TRIPLET !!! ...

2. And from this one TRIPLET the one Base was complementary to itself and creates with two other identical two Bases – from alone – a triplet !!! ...

3. THEREFORE IT DOES NOT APPLY ANY MORE that the 3 Bases are connected to each other in one and only one way and so the TRIPLET can NOT be used for a TRIPLE Helix DNA !!! ...

Triple Helix DNA Bases_3.PNG

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I have only forget to write that I had made thoughts about the existens of a molecule that could make the job of DNA...

( The IDEA of triplet bases came to me as I looked on my chessboard with the Hexagons - for 3 players...)

A DNA like molecule has to have weak Hydrogen Bonds!!!...

So... the simplest way is only a DOUBLE Helix DNA!!!

Theoretical it is possible to exist an Alien TRIPLE Helix DNA...

The only advandage of the TRIPLE Bases are the 3 Hydrogen Bonds:

8 + 13 + 13 = 34 kJ/mol    and    34 + 68 = 102 kJ/mol the triplet...

That means that Organisms with a TRIPLE Helix like it HOT !!!...:)

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I know that my "TRIPLE Helix DNA" sounds more like "molecular science fiction"

but if we could make it with "Chemical Synthetic Biology" we could learn something about it...

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On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:11 AM, Koni said:

The damage of "tautomerism" in the 2 TRIPLES DNA bases of my first Design was:

 

1. The one TRIPLET can be converted to the other TRIPLET, and vice versa, so instead of two TRIPLETS I was been left with only one TRIPLET !!! ...

2. And from this one TRIPLET the one Base was complementary to itself and creates with two other identical two Bases – from alone – a triplet !!! ...

3. THEREFORE IT DOES NOT APPLY ANY MORE that the 3 Bases are connected to each other in one and only one way and so the TRIPLET can NOT be used for a TRIPLE Helix DNA !!! ...

Triple Helix DNA Bases_3.PNG

 

Triple Helix DNA Bases_1.PNG

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Wow.  Way, way, above my comprehensive ability and thank you. ( I think.)  Considering the size of our own Galaxy alone the odds and potential for alien life is profound.  Like said in some silly movie, "Mother Nature Will Find A Way".

Is it possible extra terrestrial life will use even more complicated or different DNA arrangements?  Would it take some Super Computer time to even explore the endless DNA, (or substitute)  possibilities?  Thank you for sharing this.

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5b78b54f49f29_TripleHelixDNABases.thumb.PNG.e3da04ed702ea500b673cf96d91bacfc.PNG

These...was my 2 "perfect" Triplet DNA Bases...

 

5b78b5217adfc_TripleHelixDNABases_7.thumb.PNG.287273fc6e401bd7e735b8c72f8b223e.PNG

These are the same Bases (with the 1st Image) but because of "Tautomerism" of the Hydrogen which can change his place between 2 places, I have NOT two(2) Triplets any more !!!... but only one(1) "Tautomeric-Triplet" !!!...

 

5b78b55e3de3a_TripleHelixDNABases_4.PNG.023d2acedb53d4c76c1e692b8cac5853.PNG

 

The solution was to include the "Tautomerism" into my Design !!!... ( the GREEN & BLUE Circles ) !!!...

NOW I have "2 Triplet DNA Bases" for a "Triple Helix DNA" !!!...

 

 

 

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Interesting, but there is so much more to DNA than DNA - the ribosomes and spliceosomes and other molecular 'machinery' that assembles, splits, copies, transcribes; a much larger cross-sectioned molecular chain may present problems for the development of the complementary chemistry to do these or equivalent functions.

Just because I found the imaging of some of these processes so stunning I'll provide a link to a video showing a selection -

 

Edited by Ken Fabian

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THANK You very-very much for this "amazing" VIDEO dear Ken Fabian !!!...

since 5 years I buy and read Biology Books and so I know that the Proteins-Enzymes are the Molecular-Machines of a Cell - and NOT the D.N.A. !!!...

( My best Greek Friend "Chris" is from AUSTRALIA !!!... )

I had the idea of a "TRIPLE Helix DNA" years ago ... but I had to correct my mistakes always ... and it took my a lot of time to find a solution !!!...

It is only a "hypothetical" and "theoretical" possible model and could exist somewhere out there in the Univerce !!!... (???)

Have a nice Day - EVERY Day of your Life !!!...

Spyrou Kosta

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If some Biochemist could make my "TRIPLE Helix DNA" ... we could learn something about it,  compering it with the "DOUBLE Helix DNA"...

Because the DNA from alone does NOTHING without the Molecular Machinary of the Cell !!!...

Helix.thumb.JPG.c45ec917983b0574589a61ccfec60d12.JPG

On the 2 LEVELS ... is the "Double Helix DNA" ... (up)

On the other 2 LEVELS ... is the "Triple Helix DNA"... (down)

( The diameter of the "Triple Helix DNA" = 1,3 r of the diameter of the "Double Helix DNA" ... )

 

5b790013c9f37_64codons.thumb.PNG.6b50eddf4f1bcd7135386ee8d912ff81.PNG

two(2) "Triple Bases DNA" ( 2 * 3 Bases ) are equal = to three(3) "Double Bases DNA" ( 3 * 2 Bases )

 

and you can have 64 aminoacids :

(1) with ... "one Base pair DNA" and "six Bases t-RNA"... - ( 2^6 = 64 )

(2) with ... "two Bases pairs DNA" and "three Bases t-RNA" - ( 4^3 = 64 ) - on Earth !!!...

(3) with ... "four Bases pairs DNA" and "two Bases t-RNA" - ( 8^2 = 64 )

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This is my NEW article !!!... - I hope you like it !!!...

 

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On 8/18/2018 at 8:47 PM, Koni said:

You can look at another interesting subject that I have wrote !!!...

!

Moderator Note

Please stop doing this, we don't allow advertising here. This includes advertising your other threads. Thanks for understanding.

 

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Sorry !!! I didn't knew that - THAT is NOT allowed !!!... 

 

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ABCDEF_XYZ.PNG.f5642cf4c690a77f247579918b28f957.PNG

From my <Hexagonal> chessboard for 3 players ... I had the IDEA of a "TRIPLE Helix DNA" !!!...

My First Idea was the "dark grey" shape with the 3 Bases: (X=Y=Z=X) !!!...

My Second Idea was the "light grey" shape with the 3 Bases: (FABCDEFA) !!!...

And my Last Idea was ... both together !!!...

( Where "=" & "" are the 2-3 Hydrogen Bonds and the "small circles" are the Hydrogens !!!...)

 

 

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470581809_Helix3.thumb.JPG.4dbd01e540c8bdd348188b02c2d56d6c.JPG

This is my final design of the 2 "Triple Bases DNA"

which includes the "tautomerism" of the Hydrogens !!!...

( those with the purple bonds )

 

 

 

 

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P2080050.thumb.JPG.b75e23495faf07b857a4cc3414bd79be.JPG

 

P2080051.thumb.JPG.ae82471878280d15ebb594069246121f.JPG

 

P2080052.thumb.JPG.45b0e45a5d859fe2dc5a32224fddeec4.JPG

The First Image shows the 2 "TRIPLE DNA Bases" ...

The other two Images shows how they can bind togehter to form "triplets" with additional 3 other Bases ...

These Images are from my First (old) design !!!...

I wrote this ... only to show ... that the "TRIPLE DNA Bases" are not easy to form !!!...

 

 

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2006686096_TripleDNATautomericBases.PNG.3b8a9d3938901585bfa9bf4a92d0fb57.PNG

The one YELLOW square ... can change ... to the other YELLOW square ... with "tautomerism" of the Hydrogens !!!...

 

 

 

 

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1152089868_HelixBases1_32_3.PNG.35faa2d9335460cf1732012ae92cb722.PNG

If you have an Alien "Triple DNA Helix" ... the DNA = (3/3)Bases ...

and then:

or m-RNA = (1/3)Bases  and  t-RNA = (2/3)Bases

or m-RNA = (2/3)Bases  and  t-RNA = (1/3)Bases

or you have "both together" !!!...

( with 2 m-RNA and 2 t-RNA and 2 different Ribosomes)

a little "crazy" to be true !!!...

 

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IF you have TWO "Triple DNA Bases" ... that they can be used by a "TRIPLE Helix DNA" ... they must:

(1) The 6 Bases of the TWO "Triple DNA Bases" ... must only make these TWO "Triplets" - and NOT other "combinations" !!!...

(2) Each Base does NOT be "supplementary" with herself !!!... because then 3 Bases of the same Base ... can make ONE "Triplet" !!!...

(3) Each Base does NOT be "symmetrical" with herself !!!... because then you don't know which of the other 2 Bases is Left - or Right !!!...

P8110116_01.thumb.JPG.03b2c23303006ad0930199c479932b2b.JPG

This is my last Design with the 6 Bases ... of the TWO "Triple Bases" ABC & DEF ... with 5 "tautomeric" Hydrogens ( the YELLOWS !!! )

 

2_3_12.PNG.a3d61dd0b9bf7a14796827ddcd9a294a.PNG

These are the 12 "tautomeric" Bases ... from the 2 "Triple Bases" : ABC & DEF !!!...

 

1939889680_2_3D2.PNG.ce7d190de6072af138d496f90b32a6e9.PNG

The Base "D2" is "symmetrical" with herself !!!... and ... can make with the Bases: ( E & F2 ) ... ONE "Triplet" !!!...

 

This is the "dead end" of my IDEA ... of a "TRIPLE Helix DNA"  !!!

Kosta - GREECE - 11/8/2019

 

 

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IF you have TWO "Triple DNA Bases" ... that they can be used by a "TRIPLE Helix DNA" ... they must:

(1) The 6 Bases of the TWO "Triple DNA Bases" ... must only make these TWO "Triplets" - and NOT other "combinations" !!!...

(2) Each Base does NOT be "supplementary" with herself !!!... because then 3 Bases of the same Base ... can make ONE "Triplet" !!!...

(3) Each Base does NOT be "symmetrical" with herself !!!... because then you don't know which of the other 2 Bases is Left - or Right !!!...

1573168212_TripleHelixDNABases_3.PNG.26c57330d5d1fb40cb404271bd82b773.PNG

 

1571645754_TripleHelixDNAsolution.PNG.de9e2af0a8e3986da619cae49ae17093.PNG

I went back to my older design ... with the charged Nitrogen(N+) atom ... ( the YELLOW )

... and now my 2 "Triple Bases" can be used in a "Triple DNA Helix" !!!...

Kosta - GREECE - 11/8/2019

 

 

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P8120116.thumb.JPG.2e7d6364a7d22c7af7e11c308700322f.JPG

( The grey-Bonds are simple-Bonds(-) …

the red-Bonds are double-Bonds(=) …

the yellow-Bonds are simple tautomeric Bonds … and

the charged Nitrogen(N+) is RED !!!...

 

P8120117.thumb.JPG.1b2d7b15c5f5281d41e27078c131eff2.JPG

the charged Nitrogen(N+) is YELLOW !!!...

and the “tautomeric” Hydrogens are those with the purple-Bonds !!!...

 

The problem:

 

IF you have ONE Helix … of the THREE DNA Helices …

… you have not only to know the Bases of the Helix !!!...

… but you need also to know the “orientation” of each Base !!!...

… so that You can know which Base is on the other TWO Helices !!!...

 

I have add to the one external side of each “double-Base” a Methyl group (-CH3) !!!

 

( I do NOT know … how this could Help !!!...)

 

Have you any Idea to this problem ???...

The QUESTION is ... how can Natur (or Humans) ... make a "TRIPLE Helix DNA"

where the 6 "Double-Bases" take only ONE specific orientation ???...

 

 

 

 

 

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2122996223_TripleBasesEvolution.PNG.47e03d837812f9b618fba91fbdaada52.PNG

On this Image ... I have turned the right "Triplet" 120 degrees to the right  (like the Clock) ...

Now you can see ... that the 3 Bases of the Left-Triplet are "similar" to the 3 Bases of the Right-Triplet !!!...

The YELLOW Circles ... show the changes !!!.... ( between Black-Carbon atoms and Blue-Nitrogen atoms )

 

Life don't make by "Luck" two different "Triple Bases" !!!...

Life makes First the ONE "Triple Base" ... and then thru Evolution ... change it !!!... to make the second "Triple-Base" !!!...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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P6190028.thumb.JPG.02f05370df48393d5fd110bbb66ccc9b.JPG

From my Chessboard with the <HEXAGONS> for 3 players …

I had the Idea of “TRIPLE DNA Bases” :

1253174979_Helix1.PNG.6da59b44bc7624fca2133b2492d59eec.PNG

First … I had the Idea of the dark-blue Shape … with the 3 Bases: (X=Y=Z=X)

with 2 Hydrogen Bonds(=) between each two Bases…

 

Second … I had the Idea of the light-blue Shape … with the 3 Bases: (FABCDEFA)

with 3 Hydrogen Bonds(≡) between each two Bases…

 

And at the END … I had the Idea of “both together” !!!...

 

( where “=” and “≡” are the 2-3 Hydrogen Bonds ) – ( and the small Circles o are the Hydrogens )

270734890_Helix_1miniTriple.thumb.JPG.1f5166ee4ec72d24b8ff8a47f30ac52c.JPG

On these "small" TRIPLE Bases ... the up-Base is "supplementary" with itself !!!... and then 3 Bases of the same Base ... can make ONE "Triplet" !!!...

 

357551691_Helix_2miniTriple.thumb.JPG.febba506cc83682b7b0a9ff81eb2392f.JPG

On these "small" TRIPLE Bases ... the up-Base is "symmetrical" with itself !!!... and then you don't know which of the other 2 Bases is Left - or Right !!!...

 

1985537468_TripleDNAHelix.png.5bc42ca1f7c252712f70115523aa340d.png

On these "medium" TRIPLE Bases ... the inside Red-Oxygens repel each other !!!...

 

 

 

 

 

 

111570618_Helix2.thumb.JPG.67fc5b1f0a099e0c3ff386cbcaebef6b.JPG

These are my First TWO "Triple Bases" FA≡BC≡DE≡FA & LG=HI≡JK≡LG !!!...

ABC_DEF.thumb.JPG.c777f42ed70854410160ec9ec92deffd.JPG

These are the 2 “triple Bases” with opposite “Hydrogen Bonds” : (A≡B≡C≡A) & (D≡E≡F≡D)

 

ADX_BEY_CFZ.thumb.JPG.425f3a1620ac74de4252e9ca12654474.JPG

ADY_BEZ_CFX.thumb.JPG.9440f36aa9a2f92ce3a7679596966d60.JPG

And these 2 Images shows that they can form “triple-Bases” with the Help of the Bases: { X,Y,Z }:

First Image = ADX & BEY & CFZ

Second Image = ADY & BEZ & CFX

 

The 3 Bases { X,Y,Z } can form – from alone – “triple-Bases”: XXX & YYY & ZZZ !!!...

 

633498460_TripleHelixDNABases_1.thumb.PNG.96f5dade54ad0750782a9374a2d5009b.PNG

This was my first “perfect” design !!!... – of 2 “Triple DNA Bases” !!!...

( The “Hydrogen Bonds” from the left Triplet are “the opposite” to the “Hydrogen Bonds” from the right Triplet !!!...)

( The YELLOW and BLUE and RED Bases … have the same “molecular formula” !!!...)

 

IF you turn the Level of the right Triplet 180othe colored Hexagons with the Letters … of the right Triplet …

would take the same position … as the colored Hexagons with the Letters … of the left Triplet !!!...

 

575999390_TripleHelixDNABases_2.thumb.PNG.05f8731c8dd488e118330bda4af92c22.PNG

AFTER the turn … of the right Triplet (with the small Black Letters) …

… I had the problem of “tautomerism” of the blue and green Hydrogens !!!...

… and instead of 2 “Triple Bases” …

… I was left with only ONE tautomeric “Triple Bases” !!!...

 

788569548_TripleHelixDNABases_3.PNG.2d4595c457e8a794d7cd2e6d0cd0c2ca.PNG

To overcome this problem … I have designed again my 2 “Triple Bases” …

… including the tautomerism of the Hydrogens into my Design !!!... ( the green and blue Circles ) !!!...

 

This is my “final” Design of 2 “Triple DNA Bases” : ( FA≡BC≡DE≡FA ) & ( LG≡HI≡JL≡LG ) !!!...

( one Nitrogen is charged ) – (N+)

 

299684659_TripleHelixDNAsolution.PNG.d9b79f4cd308b0e30e70bd66a230235c.PNG

( 1=Hydrogen )

 

These are the 10 “tautomeric” Bases !!!... which can be used by an (Alien) “TRIPLE Helix DNA” because:

  1. NO Base is "supplementary" with itself !!!... because then 3 Bases of the same Base ... can make ONE "Triplet" !!!...

  2. NO Base is "symmetrical" with itself !!!... because then you don't know which of the other 2 Bases is Left - or Right !!!...

  3. The 6 (10) Bases of the 2 Triplets … cannot make other Triplets with other "combinations" !!!... except their “tautomeric”!!!... ( image / right )

 

 

 

 

P8120117.thumb.JPG.a8086fad90187806ff45812073bdd987.JPG

the charged Nitrogen(N+) is YELLOW !!!...

and the “tautomeric” Hydrogens are those with the purple-Bonds !!!...

 

P8120116.thumb.JPG.f96951194997289121fd8230e3a0ea4b.JPG

( The grey-Bonds are simple-Bonds(-) …

the red-Bonds are double-Bonds(=) …

the yellow-Bonds are simple tautomeric Bonds … and

the charged Nitrogen(N+) is RED !!!...

1425468578_TripleBasesEvolution.PNG.e6c0ae82bbe5e72b87578dd26eb31afc.PNG

After the turn of the right "Triple Bases" 120 degrees to the right (like the clock) ...

you can see that the 3 Bases of the left-triplet are "similar" to the 3 Bases of the right-triplet !!!...

( With YELLOW-Circles I show the replaces between Black-Carbon atoms and Blue-Nitrogen atoms !!! )

Life don't make TWO different "Triple-Bases" per Luck !!!...

Life makes First the ONE "Triple Bases" and then ... change them ... through EVOLUTION ... and makes the second "Triple Bases" !!!...

 

 

 

 

 

1410132091_Double_TripleHelix.thumb.JPG.c0f47e45bcefde23f94211306ecc7674.JPG

The two(2) up-levels are the “DOUBLE Helix DNA” with the Double-Bases: G≡C & A=T

 

The two(2) down-levels are my “TRIPLE Helix DNA” with the Triple-Bases: FA≡BC≡DE≡FA & LG=HI≡JK≡LG !!!...

 

( The radius of the Double Helix is = 2/3 of the radius of the Triple Helix !!!...)

 

1805155034_Bases1_32_3.PNG.581d0d62df47aa7c67ad8f0f646050f2.PNG

When you have (3/3)DNA Bases...then:

Or m-RNA = (1/3)Bases and t-RNA = (2/3)Bases

Or m-RNA = (2/3)Bases and t-RNA = (1/3)Bases

Or both !!!...

 

The problem:

 

IF you have ONE Helix … of the THREE DNA Helices …

… you have not only to know the Bases of the Helix !!!...

… but you need also to know the “orientation” of each Base !!!...

… so that You can know which Base is on the other TWO Helices !!!...

 

I have add to the one external side of each “double-Base” a Methyl group (-CH3) !!!

 

( I do NOT know … how this could Help !!!...)

 

Have you any Idea to this problem ???...

 

THANK You very-very much my friend for any Help !!!...

 

Kosta: “Have a nice Day – EVERY Day of your Life !!!...”

 

 

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