DrDNA

Actually, it is a perfectly appropriate term and you are a genius for pointing it out! According to Genesis, man was made in an "unbroken" state. Then came the fall and as a consequence, we all became broken. And iNow is correct as well. People who believe in GOD are broken. He just left out (accidentally, probably) the point that people that don't believe in GOD are broken as well.

Thank you. But I have very little faith that you know what I meant. Deism is a belief in a god. But the belief is in an impersonal entity(ies). For example, he (it) made the universe and does not interact with the universe after he created it. Theism describes a God that is personal and ever interacting. For example, the God of Hebrews. So, a deity, in the purest sense of the word, does not respond to prayers, does not perform miracles, etc. A theistic God is a living, interacting God that we can have a personal, daily relationship with. Sorry if this created any confusion fer ya.

I'm not referring to a 'diety'. This is a common mistake of many atheists, agnostics. Even many ' Christians'. A diety is not the proper description for the God of the Hebrews.

Good post but as Christians, we believe that all we need is faith in Christ. And that really sums it up. All the rest is flutter to a born again Christian. I am asserting that faith is real. It is observable. It is measurable. Christ said this long before the placebo effect was known. New Testament verses on Healing Faith. Matthew 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well. Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly. Matthew 21:21-22 And Jesus answered them, “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” Mark 10:52 And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way. Acts 14:9-10 He listened to Paul speaking. And Paul, looking intently at him and seeing that he had faith to be made well, said in a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he sprang up and began walking. What's your point? I am familiar with you references. However, that dagger in the heart is, there is no evidence that the patients themselves had any faith. For example, if I have faith (or pray) that my loved one will stop drinking, it may or may not have an effect. But it is certainly not the same as them having faith in themselves (or praying themselves); that they can stop drinking.

Thank you for reenforcing my point. ""Faith is confidence or trust in a person or entity.[1][2] "" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

Endorphins? OK. Maybe in some cases. But we are not just taking about pain control. If endorphins cured everything, then I'd be a marathon runner for sure. I know of no drug study for any ailment in which the placebo effect is not involved. Maybe you do. You have proven my point to some extent. Thank you. Faith in a possibility. Faith in "something" that cannot be easily dismissed. Not faith in a lie. Just pure and simple faith. In fact, in many cases, Christian patients have faith in God and pray to God, that the Holy Spirit will intervene and assist with the treatment. But for the sake of this argument, i don't really have a preference who or what it is faith in. I said that it is an act of faith that is observable, measurable and that works.

Dear Lord in heaven. Are you some kind of bureaucrat that gets his kicks drowning people in paperwork?! wiki You have already proven that you know what it is and confirm that it exists. Dont you simply disagree that it is faith? Well, I don't think many scientists us that terminology to describe it. Maybe I eve made it up. I have made a logical argument for faith being responsible for the placebo effect. It stands on its own merits. Shoot it down if you can. Which you have not. (but don't try to drown me in crap)

Huh? You are confused. I am arguing why the placebo effect is scientific AND an act of faith. It is measurable and observable and repeatable. Without the act of faith, nothing happens. Then, there is nothing to measure. Faith on the part of patient is a requirement. What are you saying?

No. Right answer. I'm not going to waste my time looking up references to affirm that the sky is blue. Wiki it. Of course there are a lot of unanswered questions about the placebo effect. Because it is an act of faith. Science can measure it. But they can't explain it. It doesn't fit neatly into a box so you would rather dismiss it or say that it is not supportable.

The placebo effect is an act of faith. Pure and simple faith. It doesn't need any. It is as well accepted in the medical community as the air you breath. Just Google it. Regarding your "references"......and the Flat Earth Society Believes that the earth is flat. Others have written articles that the moon is hollow and that the inside of it is actually a base for space aliens. I even saw a picture that was described as a bottle on the lunar surface. Since I have never been anywhere in the wilderness where I couldn't find a few empty beer bottles, it must have been a beer bottle. I'm interested in how this relates to faith in general and or the placebo effect specifically. Could you go into more detail about this?

Your argument doesn't hold water. In a double blind study, even the experimenter doesn't know. So there is no lying involved. ONLY faith and faith alone. Well. I'm old and they are not tenuous. I'm sorry that you lost your beliefs.

I forgot to mention this earlier. In drug studies, the placebo effect for example, commonly approaching 20% in some studies (and even up to 35% in others! ), is measurable and observable. The effect is often greater that the actual drug or treatment itself. The placebo effect proves that faith heals. As Jesus stated, the faith of a mustard seed..... Belief in God involves faith. So, is the placebo effect, and therefore faith, broken also?

I didn't suggest the contributors are. Just the question. Quit taking everything so personal. It makes you smell guilty.

What kind of responses do you think you would have received 60 years ago (and if they had PCs) if the question was..... "Do you think people who believe that the universe had a beginning and it is expanding are broken?" Was there any solid evidence at the time to support the theory that the universe is static? No. It just made the equations balance. If that ain't faith, I don't know what is. Faith in a cosmological factor. Hebrews and Christians knew it had a beginning and the scientific community thought we were nuts. This is why the question is broken. Any scientist worth his salt knows that he doesn't know hardly anything. All this assumption of a particular group of people being broken and others not broken is bigoted and arrogant. It is bigoted and arrogant to ask that "are people that live in trailer parks broken" also. The average income levels of people that live in trailer parks are lower than those that live in gated communities. The trailers are more dangerous in storms. yet they still choose to live there. But are the people that live there broken? Are they relatively more broken compared to people that live in gated communities? I think this is treading on dangerous ground.

iNow, You STILL have ignored most every question that I asked you point blank. That is false. ' I said that there would be no organized moral structure. There may be moral individuals in such an environment, but it would be anarchy without a moral legal system. a la Mad Max and The Road Warrior may be examples. I stand behind my statement. Our legal system in the US is based on Jude o Christian moral codes. Again, you are either not reading, not reading clearly, or avoiding it purposely because you disagree with it. I said that they are primarily DERIVED from these codes and laws. The only "example" you could give to support your statement that the legal system and society would be just fine without laws and morals derived from religious codes and laws was an ambiguous (paraphrasing) uncountable number of non-human studies. I assumed that we were discussing humans, not gerbils here. Please, what are these studies and exactly how to they directly relate to human beings, which I believe this thread is about? If you want to discuss non-human religions, I am willing to participate, but that would be off topic. You use the term "believer(s) in god" only in very negative contexts. What exactly did we do to you to evoke this negative bias and emotion. I, for one, would like to apologize for whatever it was. It is nonsense. We are talking about humans and non human examples are apples and oranges. This is so basic, I am starting to wonder. You are confusing genetically programed behavior with learned behavior. Behavioral studies on non humans do not translate well to humans. This went out of the mainstream in the 60s and 70s. DrDNA, on 22 April 2012 - 09:13 PM, said: But I do believe that the biblical account is true. It is in no way shape or form contradictory to science. <...> Translation for you. Bible is true. Bible does not contradict science. The Bible may be contradictory to some scientific fad or false hypothesis. It has been in the past. But it does not contradict to the truth and this is becoming more evident every day. <...> Translation. Bible has been contradictory to scientific fads or false hypotheses in the past. Bible does not contradict the truth. The truth is becoming more evident every day. This does not mean that the Bible is broken. It means that we are broken. Translation. People are broken. The Bible is not broken. Now, iNow. What is the problem? PS. Regarding the use of a slang word (F.......g) which means a sexual act.....I would appreciate it if you would refrain from this. My kid reads this forum for science knowledge, as do other kids. Thank you.

That was the date published in 1650 by the Archbishop of Armagh. The calculation is called the Ussher chronology. Since YHWH exists outside of space and time (in fact created them), I find it humorous that so many people insist that he wear a watch.

Define reality please.

I did not say that biblical inconsistencies do not exist. I did not say that they only result from scientific fad. Do actually read a post that has an opposing view before you criticize it? You have ignored most every question that I asked you point blank. Your behavior is very much like Mitt Romney in a Republican primary debate.... Mr Romney what is your stance on taxes? "We must defeat the Obama administration, which is actively trying to destroy the American way of life, at all costs". Seriously, are you baiting?

I never said that nonbelievers cannot be moral. You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say, did not consider, nor did I imply. I said that many laws are derived from moral codes developed by religions. In Western societies many of these laws were derived from the Hebrews, for example, the Law(s) of Moses. The same holds true for Eastern societies, et al, and their particular religion-based moral attitudes which have been translated into laws. Without those moral codes, we would have anarchy. Your "non human" examples that you propose translate to humans, human society, and human morals are nothing short of nonsense.

You seem ignorant to the fact that guinea pigs do not regularly attend church.

I feel strongly that the root of matter is this. One basic question is a strong distinguishing factor between theists (at least Christians) from non-theists: Do you believe that man/woman is born good or bad? a. From a Christian perspective, we believe that we are born messed up. b. From many secular views, man/woman is born just the way we should be (ie, "good") and the world messes us up. What I'm leading to is this, how can you be believe that man/woman is born imperfect and be an atheist? Name some. I was going to say one, but you said "countless" (ie, infinity) so a few should be easy. Humans only. You seem ignorant of history. Most or even perhaps all moral civil laws are derived from religions. If you disagree, please give some examples.

Speaking of Sigmund Freud....... what kinda superhero complex is this Stan Lee? I was just chastised for "making this about " iNow and here you go and make it about iNow x10. I r Confused. Could you please rephrase this in a non-egocentric manner? Then perhaps I can also respond in an impersonal manner. Thanks. Exactly how is faith a "cancer"?. I've never heard of it referred to in that manner before. We all have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. We all have faith that we will live at least a little longer. We have faith in so many things. Faith is a normal human emotion. Lacking faith is pathological. It is classified as severe clinical depression. Anger? No way dude. Never. I apologize if (since) it seemed that way. I'm just puzzled. Puzzled why you feel so strongly that religion is so awful. Without it, we would have no moral laws, for example. That would be total anarchy.

iNow, Why are you so fixated on disproving or disallowing the existence of God? It's a little much don't you think? Did you wake to find that Santa forgot about you or did he bring you the completely wrong toy one Christmas morning long ago? How did that make you feel? Were you breast fed or bottle fed? PS: Parts of the Bible are poems and/or parables. Just because some people have it all screwed up in your opinion doesn't mean squat about the existence of God or even the truth of the Bible. He exists just the same, and for that matter, he loves you just the same, no matter if you believe in him or not.

Looks like you are simply lobbying for the brokenness of man. Which is a biblical principle. Plus, the history of science is also filled with what you describe.

As mentioned above, corporate lobbying and profit have a lot to do with it..... "The private contracting of prisoners for work fosters incentives to lock people up. Prisons depend on this income. Corporate stockholders who make money off prisoners' work lobby for longer sentences, in order to expand their workforce. The system feeds itself," says a study by the Progressive Labor Party, which accuses the prison industry of being "an imitation of Nazi Germany with respect to forced slave labor and concentration camps." The prison industry complex is one of the fastest-growing industries in the United States and its investors are on Wall Street. "This multimillion-dollar industry has its own trade exhibitions, conventions, websites, and mail-order/Internet catalogs. It also has direct advertising campaigns, architecture companies, construction companies, investment houses on Wall Street, plumbing supply companies, food supply companies, armed security, and padded cells in a large variety of colors." According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people. CRIME GOES DOWN, JAIL POPULATION GOES UP According to reports by human rights organizations, these are the factors that increase the profit potential for those who invest in the prison industry complex: . Jailing persons convicted of non-violent crimes, and long prison sentences for possession of microscopic quantities of illegal drugs. Federal law stipulates five years' imprisonment without possibility of parole for possession of 5 grams of crack or 3.5 ounces of heroin, and 10 years for possession of less than 2 ounces of rock-cocaine or crack. A sentence of 5 years for cocaine powder requires possession of 500 grams - 100 times more than the quantity of rock cocaine for the same sentence. Most of those who use cocaine powder are white, middle-class or rich people, while mostly Blacks and Latinos use rock cocaine. In Texas, a person may be sentenced for up to two years' imprisonment for possessing 4 ounces of marijuana. Here in New York, the 1973 Nelson Rockefeller anti-drug law provides for a mandatory prison sentence of 15 years to life for possession of 4 ounces of any illegal drug. . The passage in 13 states of the "three strikes" laws (life in prison after being convicted of three felonies), made it necessary to build 20 new federal prisons. One of the most disturbing cases resulting from this measure was that of a prisoner who for stealing a car and two bicycles received three 25-year sentences. .The prison industry in the United States: big business or a new form of slavery? It's really become a sad situation. And the answer is simple.....$$$$$$$$