Phi for All

You smoke cigarettes, don't you? It could be residual smoke from your lungs. When you fill your mouth with air you're using your lungs to compress the air in your mouth.

Welcome, you wonderful woman! We've been waiting to hear from the saner side of your household!

I'm from Colorado and in the old west "slapping thigh" meant you're going for your gun. Maybe it scares the sneeze out of you, Probably works for hiccups too. Seriously, I've never heard of this and I can't imagine the bodily mechanism. Would any sharp pain do the same thing or does it have to be your thigh? Perhaps this is a form of acupressure?

I think a Mars colony would need a very limited set of criteria to perform to be considered successful; they simply aren't going to be able to do a whole bunch of complicated tasks and also work towards self-sufficiency. But I agree that it could happen. I also agree that it wouldn't be in Mars' best interests to claim total independence from Earth. I'm a globalist so I share that belief. It just shouldn't be a chimp named Blair. Ever. I really hope we're thinking that way when the time comes. If it happened today the need for short-term ROI might outweigh propriety. I think Sayo tried to bring that up with disaster relief. It would almost certainly cause tension. Look at how nationalistic many people get when they hear about their own country sending aid offshore when there are so many problems in-country. No worries. It would be nice to live that long and see what problems they do have, and how many of our concerns they've dealt with.

A serum derived from a Martian source which cures the latest superflu on Earth? Some form of bacterial life which thrives in Mars' 95% CO2 atmosphere and can be used to destroy cancer cells? Why is it easy to imagine a totally self-sustained Mars colony and not a valuable commodity for it to export?

Unfortunately, the shock-jock's fans don't listen to them nearly as much as their detractors. I remember hearing that Howard Stern's fans listened to him for an average of 45 minutes a day and the people who hated him listened for like 4 hours. Suspension and threats of pulling their shows due to complaints are just tactics to boost ratings. Oddly, in the backwards world of media, negativity sells better. Talk show hosts are like car wrecks; the more horrible they are the more people can't look away.

Newton was the absolute accurate truth for centuries. Everyone knew his view of physics to be true. Until it wasn't quite. The only truths are the ones which can adapt as knowledge grows.

They suck the energy from the batteries in the remote! Oh, thank you for that!

You keep going back and forth between what we can do now and what we'll be able to do then. Believe me, if something is found and can only be obtained on Mars and Earth will pay for it, there will be trade. Goods don't have to be cheap, they have to be profitable.

If we're going to assume advancements in technology though, we should also keep a slight hope out for some kind of discovery / process that can only be found / performed on Mars. Trade requires something for both sides to profit from and if Mars has something to offer then trade will ensue. Not that much of a joke, just implausible at this point.

I suppose, in the end, most of this argument is moot. If we can't figure a way to send a colony to Mars and have at least a 90% chance of success no matter what the mission model is we'll never send it in the first place. If sustainability is the goal and we can't make the numbers work with our then-present technology, no one will make the investment. If we figure out a way to have a limited science colony that can at least repair and update their own machinery, harvest water and grow their own food then we'll ask for volunteers and we'll do it. I'm starting to lean more towards Sayo's thinking that Mars is a pretty second rate rock and anything other than a research station is probably not going to happen. While I can see spending a few months traveling there, working a hitch and then coming back, who would want to live there and raise a family there unless life on Earth was somehow less attractive?

I changed the thread name to better reflect the topic for those who scan titles.

I disagree with the "pure" part. Speculation should be based on logical methodology and Sayo has made some extremely tough points to refute. Addressing them isn't something you can brush off and still maintain the integrity of your argument. I have noticed certain discrepancies that keep popping up, like the Martians won't need uranium for power but then suddenly they have reactors to solve another problem. The equation needs to stay balanced. Again, I think Mars *could* become self-sufficient (no freebies from Earth) but I don't think 50 years is near long enough. Remember that a Mars colony's biggest commodity / export is probably going to be research but whoever foots the bill for getting there in the first place is going to want that research as a return on investment, not as a trade medium. Now you're definitely moving the goalposts. "Survival" seems different than "self sufficiency in 50 years". And now we're changing self-sufficiency to mean simply *not* having a "need to rely heavily on Earth for its survival"? I think you used strong terms to begin with and are now back-pedaling. I also think Sayo's "never" is too strong but he's sticking with it. Those arguing for Mars independence in 50 years have tried to refute each individual obstacle to self-sufficiency but when taken as a whole it seems like it would require too many resources and too much manpower. How big is this colony after 50 years (now *this* part is pure speculation)? 1000 people? 10,000 people? 100,000 or more? Within this population you'll have a need for a wide variety of skilled and unskilled professions. And if you obviate the need for, for instance, miners to extract metals and minerals by supposing robots or other mechanical means you've just increased your need for new and growing technology and manufacturing. This feels wrong. Their needs will always be out of proportion to their size it would seem. The list of things a *Mars* colony would need to manufacture is huge. We have a clothing factory ( I guess we're assuming that we have another factory for taking fibers we've grown in our agriculture facility and weaving them into cloth), which needs a factory to make replacement parts for the clothing equipment. Remember that this colony isn't starting out like any other; it's technology needs are far greater right from the beginning. How many factories are you going to need to maintain self-sufficiency? Another thing, are we assuming (as Sayo did at one point) that Earth has a cohesive political infrastructure with an Earth President and no competing countries? Why would any Mars colony want independence if there is a possibility of rival concerns (either simply competitive or possibly hostile)? Lastly, if we assume that Sysco's "technologically advanced apparatus" becomes reality, won't that mean that getting state-of-the-art goods from Earth will just get easier and easier? In that case diminishing returns will dictate that some things will always be easier and cheaper to get from Earth than to make from scratch yourself.

I like this quote from the site: "Our clients are usually surprised at what we find." Let me guess, you have to fill out a questionnaire with lots of personal information on it, right? "Mr Smith, we found 147 slanderous things about you on the Web." Probably only 12 of them were there before you called RepDef. Better than Disney?!

I suppose a very Spartan self-sufficiency could be achieved but you would still need a very large colony to extract and process materials to manufacture a broad range of technological necessities eventually. Imports being trade and therefore not damaging to the self-sufficient model, is that the deal? You'd still need something to trade. Mars rocks at $5000 each will only be popular for so long (eventually knock-off Moon rocks will ruin the market). As far as a Mars colony being eventually self-sufficient, I'm still somewhere between your 50 years and Sayonara³'s "never". I don't like your idea that total independence could happen that quickly in a colony that is most likely research-based and would require the absolute bleeding edge in Earth technology. And I don't like Sayonara³'s idea that Blair would be Earth President.

Sounds like the Burbclaves from Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson. Like-minded people living in guarded communities while working for various "franchises". I think compound mentality would eventually spell disaster for these private societies. Not enough diversity, a dearth of new ideas, new thinking. Believe it or not, when people get along too well creativity can suffer. And I just don't like putting like-minded people all together in one place. A little too Waco for me.

I think the term "self-sufficient" is causing problems here. When I think of self-sufficiency with regards to a teenager moving out of the house, if he can pay his own bills I'd call him self-sufficient even though he comes back every once in a while to do laundry. A Martian colony that calls itself self-sufficient better be able to make *anything* they need without calling home. Do you think a 50-year-old Martian colony could make it's own computers and specialty tools? You're still talking about a division of labor that would require this Martian colony to be enormous to be self-sufficient. And remember, the bigger it is, the more resources it needs. So if we can't change the planet to suit ourselves, we change ourselves to suit the planet? That's going to meet with some resistance. I think you need to give it more than 50 years, a lot more.

The American colonies had resources I'm not sure Mars can duplicate, including helpful natives who knew the dangers inherent in the territory. Plus it's one thing to grow your own food and another to be completely self-sufficient. 50 years wouldn't be enough time to gather materials and manufacture the kind of structures and machinery necessary for a growing colony without some assistance from Earth. The American colonists could get along with pretty crude shelter or even sleep out under the stars while exploring. Besides, if a colony is even semi-successful there will be regular visits from Earth. There will be resources and equipment that is simply easier and cheaper to get from the next Earth shipment rather than make it yourself.

Nature's Miracle is a good product and this is a good place to buy it. You can get it at PetsMart but it's a lot more expensive. I have a cat that did the same thing. This is a good product.

Funny story. The janitor at the SFN World HQ building buffs the floor under the letters but stops short of the atom. He claims his union won't let him go near anything radioactive. That's why the atom doesn't reflect. Another gem for the FAQ. As far as we know, it *was* you. We aren't telling blike because you two were close. No, there are absolutely only three Admins at SFN, and when I say absolutely three, I mean more like four.

It's about time. Finally I can tell everyone that that's you and blike in blike's avatar!

My mighty Haiku, yourdadonapogos, tick- les the minds of all.

But there's only three Admins and they all think it's hip to be horrid. I think the blue needs to be lighter to contrast better but you're right, the blue on blue will work.

I'm starting to come around too. And I agree about the contrast for quotes. If the usernames are causing problems maybe increasing the kerning between the letters will help legibility. There's certainly plenty of room on the blue bar for longer names. Bolded they all look a bit scrunched now.

I'll get the two of you some coupons for para-veggie-sailing in the broccoli forests of Brazil as a wedding present. I trust Sarah is well aware of your thrillseeking tendencies.