Phi for All

Please cite the cultures that use Catcher in the Rye as a blueprint for society, because it seems like a Red Herring argument designed to lead a discussion off the rails. I've been quite clear about why I think the Abrahamic religions are like a poison people have been drinking for centuries. Do you really think the direction of personal moral compasses aren't influenced by treating the believer like someone who deserves eternal torture unless they do what they're told? Humans have adapted to the teachings in many ways, and you might call some positive, but on the whole it's a belief system designed for oppression and corruption that smiles on you if you obey, based on Iron Age superstition and ignorance. I'd be happy to start a separate thread on this. I'm fairly certain I can compile the evidence to support calling these religions a plague on humanity, causing far more harm and destruction of life than the good they pretend to be interested in. Their holy books are an abomination of deception, greed, and patriarchal control, and the things they teach are often hideous examples of moral misdirection. They've caused so much abuse for generations and I think we need to start using these big brains that evolution gave us (not a god) and stop this harmful, sheeplike acceptance of absurdity.

There are theories that describe more than one universe, but this is in Astronomy and Cosmology, and the best current models tell us there is only one, and it is expanding but not into anything, since the universe is all there is. The same models describe a time when our universe was (what we would now call) microscopic, extremely dense, and extremely hot.

I'm talking about all the people who are going to try to advertise their own YT channel.

! Moderator Note Just a reminder of the relevant part of our Rule 2.7: Advertising and spam is prohibited. We don't mind if you put a link to your noncommercial site (e.g. a blog) in your signature and/or profile, but don't go around making threads to advertise it. Links, pictures and videos in posts should be relevant to the discussion, and members should be able to participate in the discussion without clicking any links or watching any videos. Videos and pictures should be accompanied by enough text to set the tone for the discussion, and should not be posted alone. Users advertising commercial sites will be banned.

! Moderator Note Thread closed.

The books that teach the spirituality say basically the same things, that you're flawed and deserve eternal torture and misery unless you believe the way they tell you. It doesn't need much corruption from there, does it?

Trust me, in online discussion, you want the conversations to be very specific. The probability of reaching some kind of consensus or meaningful stance is much higher when the topic is more focused. And as swansont mentioned, people responding to multiple ideas in the same thread is chaotic and hard to follow. If you want a better topic than moving away from capitalism, what about changing our education processes? I've heard some great approaches designed to better prepare children for modern life, and I've often thought we leave too much to parents in the early years, and then wonder why kids get so screwed up.

My stance, the stance of those I'm talking about, or something else? Never mind, I don't care what it's kinda like. It's what I said, what I meant, and you should feel free to be clearer in your responses. You think that's the point? That your concept of religion/spirituality should only lead to outcomes you approve of? You're asking why would the Abrahamic religions reduce humans to garbage, spread lies, and oppress so many folks? But you don't ask WHY ARE THEY doing it, like you're wearing blinders and can't see it happening all over the world?

For me, it's about the time and effort others put into their responses to make them as clear and meaningful as possible for the rest of the folks in the discussion. You often seem to be listening (and responding) to only what you're thinking instead of what other people said. You're even quoting yourself now, like we aren't that important. You also often seem to put special emphasis on the vagueness of your responses, like a guru claiming, "Life is a river". I mostly ignore it because questioning it only brings more vagueness. I have to admit it offends me for two reasons. First, it seems intellectually lazy for a science discussion site (which is probably the exact opposite of the way you think of it), because you can never be wrong if you're vague enough. Second, you often talk about how much you've had to drink while posting, and I'm over 30 years sober, and enough of a snob about it to think we aren't getting to talk to the real you. I'm not looking for arbiters, truths, or wisdom nuggets. I'm here to talk to folks about life on Earth, their experiences, and to share knowledge. I like that knowledge wrapped in transparent cellophane with a simple twist tie, not covered in opaque brown paper, glue, and duct tape.

Yes, and we all know men who wouldn't assault a vulnerable woman, and we all know politicians we believe tell the truth, and we all know conservatives who aren't racists, but how do we protect ourselves from the others? By assuming they're all the same until they show us otherwise. I've heard enough stories about god-fearing, righteous people who did unspeakable things to their children in the name of their god to know that nobody who claims to be religious can be trusted. I've heard many religious people claim to be looking forward to when the bombs fall and the righteous are called to heaven, and quite frankly I wish they'd leave now, and let those of us who care about this life live it in peace, away from all those toxic judgements from those who truly believe God thinks humans are pieces of shit that deserve eternal torture. I don't deny spirituality. Wish it didn't have to reduce humans to garbage, spread lies, and oppress so many folks, though.

I think we need to divest ourselves of capitalism, personally, and the best way to start that is to focus early on teaching children ways to succeed through cooperation as opposed to competition. And I'm not talking about getting rid of competition, just educating young people on how humans get more positive outcomes by cooperating with each other than we do competing against each other. A few generations of that type of focus might remove much that is highly toxic in our societies.

! Moderator Note And that person, who isn't part of this discussion, needs to stop it or they get their privileges taken away.

At least part of the problem is the inherent disconnect between the three religions that supposedly share the same progenitor. The religions of Abraham are distinctly at odds with each other, and they even demand their own holy books, which automatically creates discord and ill-feelings. They're distinct enough that when they each preach about monotheism, it's like they mean three different gods, which means only one can be true in the minds of believers. https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/34340/chapter-abstract/334356122?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false Exposure to the Abrahamic religions has stifled many other areas besides science. None of them are stellar examples of morality and ethical treatment, and the teachings they pretend to follow just point out the hypocrisy of the three church's stances. Women in particular are treated as cattle in the Bible and Koran, and continued exposure has created the horrible patriarchal systems that still makes life miserable for so many. Quite frankly, many of us are sick of the violence the churches pretend they don't have a hand in. Many people claim to have closely held spiritual beliefs, but they organize under banners so soaked in the blood of innocents that it seems like flat out hypocrisy. Modern churches give lip service to the tenets they supposedly hold dear, all the while funding terrorism, human trafficking, slavery and worse. Most of the problems we have today can be traced back to a rigid adherence to some part of either Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. You might claim it's only the extremists, but these are the people the religious have chosen to lead them. Netanyahu, Raisi, Orban, all are extremists who hold (or held) the fates of their followers in their righteous, blood-soaked hands. I think the current US Republican party has continued to weaponize religion, and I think people who object to their closely held beliefs being labeled generational abuse need to seriously ask themselves if they get enough spiritually from their Abrahamic religion to offset all the torture, rape, murder, broken lives, and broken minds those religions also foster. You may not be the problem, but you're supporting the problem, so you're the problem.

I think what iNow is referring to is how the abrahamic religions often support multiple things that are contradictory, allowing the leaders an answer, no matter how absurd, to any question a follower might have. If they get you to believe one bizarre thing, you're much more likely to believe the next thing they tell you. Sunk cost is definitely part of the larger question of how we lessen the grip of religion in our society, as well as the grip of politics, imo. They aren't what will save us, they're part of this obsession with populism that's killing us.

! Moderator Note This is pure supposition. If you want to use this as part of an argument, you need to provide some credible sources that support it. This is a mainstream section, so we need more rigor.

I'm a Humanist, and I believe in humans. Are you saying your gods are just as real? Are you saying humans aren't more real than any god people believe in? I don't have to dip into my trust fund to believe in humans, they're very observable.

This is what I'm choosing, since it makes more sense than cultural choices. I like the French educational system, where everyone is schooled with a public curriculum. Private schools increase class divides. I like the German road system. They know potholes cause too much damage to well-made cars, so they don't put up with them. Actually, most problems I see around the world are because of too much focus on private ownership. The People in a democracy and the State should own certain sectors of the economy, especially wrt infrastructure like roads, ports, and power grids. Some things are more important that they work efficiently and sustainably than that they make a profit for the owners. So I'm not sure if making certain countries the leaders of the world will work. We need leadership that decides it's important to put a computer with internet hookup in every household, so everyone has a chance to participate in modern life on the planet at a cost that reasonably reflects such a massive endeavor.

If they were beating people over the head with a hammer, am I supposed to consider the hammer harmless? Or should I treat the hammer and those who wield it carefully like the deadly weapons they are? What if you consider just about everything in that book has caused abuse for generations of humans, told believers what pieces of shit they were born as, and has allowed the Church to rape and pillage its way throughout history, until today where they serve as a real estate holding scheme for pedophiles and murderers? I think you're making the mistake of conflating an enormous, multigenerational scam perpetrated by various Abrahamic Churches with anything remotely ethical or moral. And when it comes to unacceptable morality, I don't need to read what it should be about, I have their unacceptable behavior as my guideline. So shame on you for the "out of hand" part, like you're the only person who'd thought hard about this.

Bad question, makes it look like you're linking low serotonin levels to ALL depression. The claim is actually that impairing serotonin function can cause depression in some circumstances.

Not copied and pasted, but rather generated by AI in the first place. Against our rules of arguing in good faith.

I've noticed a tendency for many people to ignore the fact that the technology we develop is part of the large brain adaptations we've evolved towards as a species. It seems you don't think sunglasses are "natural" even though they're only tools we use, made from naturally occuring materials. Our body is NOT naturally born to tackle harsh environments, and that's why we make clothes and shoes and hats and coats, and we made wearable shade to protect our eyes, and develop filters and screens to protect our delicate skins. We didn't get wings to fly, but we got brains big enough to figure it out, and that's part of OUR nature, which is just as natural as any other species.

I completely relate to this! Your upper lip probably curled when you purposely misspelled it above. We're proud of our use of the written word, and go to some effort to craft reasoned responses hoping they're clearly understood. Having a word flagged in an otherwise well-crafted sentence and hitting submit is like having a great conversation with someone but belching every time you try to say their name. Ignore those flags at your peril! As a side note, watch out for the double consonants and vowels. I've noticed a tendency of mine to triple tap when gooogling flaggged missspelllings due to embarrrasssment at my fooolishnesss.

If an undone fly was enough to let my junk burst out of my underwear and hang there in front of everybody, I think I'd be proud as opposed to embarrassed.

There's a BUNCH of people these days who believe in a vertical morality, where they position others on a scale of right/wrong with themselves as judge, using a hodge-podge of religious teachings and confirmation biases to determine whether they're worse or better than others. The best of them only judge your worst behaviors, but too many cast a broader net, trying to put you below them on the morality scale because of the music you listen to, or the way your hair looks, or the money they think you don't have. Humans brains naturally look for patterns. They give us conventions we use to assess situations in our lives, based on typical experiences. Historically, noticing things that diverged from typical patterns has saved lives and enriched many individuals. "A critical eye" is often applauded in many societies, and may embolden your parents to "fix" your broken biker look. Most parents secret unreasonable wish is that their kids not get picked on for any reason, that they fit in, and get along with everyone. And then some folks take it to extremes. They don't think of things as typical or divergent, they think of them as right or wrong. I think these folks need to realize how worthless and destructive this kind of judgement is. I had a friend once who wore wildly colorful clothes, and if anyone called him out for it, he just said, "If I look just like you, why do we need you?" Loved that guy.

I've found that I'm not best judge when it comes to self-assessment. I make mistakes in social contexts if I'm not looking for outside input. My own reasoning can only go so far since it's tightly tied to my knowledge. It's embarrassing to me when I realize I've made a mistake that could have been easily prevented by asking others. So in this context, embarrassment helps me stay humble about what I know. There's always more to learn. Are you saying you use formal logic to make decisions? I've seen many philosophers use formal logic to make a completely false statement that's still valid. Formal logic is NOT an empirical study. Most of your examples seem like cultural pressure, and the need to "fit in" with our tribe is stronger in some than others. What we wear is often signalling to others something about us, and misreading those signals can embarrass us into either better focus or figuring out personal solutions. Sometimes that personal solution is "I don't care if people make fun of this shirt, I love it!" And there are arguably situations where one should be embarrassed by their actions. It's one thing to ignore whether you're using a feminine or masculine deodorant, and quite another to skip the deodorant altogether (or much worse, douse yourself in cheap cologne/perfume) in a situation where other people have to put up with your mistake. Embarrassment is normally something felt in degrees. The bigger the offense, the more embarrassed you should feel about it. I wouldn't say it's a useless feeling, but I do think it's probably being abused by some, used to manipulate us by others, and in general something you should avoid by focusing less on the embarrassment and more on whether this is something you need to fix or not.