Mike Smith Cosmos

Mike, I think you are going about this in a somewhat less than skeptical way. There is no evidence of something above in way that we are above goldfish. In the face of the lack of evidence logic say we should go with the null hypothesis. That being, what! is in question that lacks evidence is not real.

 

I am not a big fan of the super being meme, maybe intelligent machine beings might fit the bill but even in our own species individuals are not evolving toward the super being status. In fact the size of human brains is falling and the days of one person having to be skilled enough to do multiple things just to live are gone.

 

.

I went to a taught Art class yesterday ( that I join in with other artists) overseen by a 90 year old artist . The subject he introduced at the beginning of the session was MAPS . He wanted us to paint an illustrated map of the town or village we lived in . I exclaimed I would find that too boreing, and asked if I could paint a map of " where I felt I was in the Universe! He said fine , !

 

So away I went with 4 sheets of art paper to paint very very quickly in acrylic paint , where I felt I was in my HEIRACHY of LIFE . Before I was through after an hour or two . He said I should write the distinctive words of :- Omar Khayyám's poems . # see end of post

 

Here is the 4 sketch paintings . Now I am sat in the park , composing my own words to put at the bottom of each painting . Like

 

" looking down on the gold fish who hardly , know or are aware of me looking at them , while I am very much aware of them and care for their well being to a certain degree , ........"

 

Picture 1 the bugs on the floor of the pool observed by gold fish , but only loosely aware of the gold fish themselves

 

Picture 2 the fish in the pool , very aware of the bugs on the floor of the pool , but only loosely aware of me as the overseer of the fish .

Picture 3 the 'me' human , very aware of the fish but not aware of the bugs , but only loosely aware of the possible overseers of us humans .

Picture 4 the occupants of the higher cosmos , very aware of us humans , but .....aware that the humans are only loosely aware / not aware of them !

 

Mike

 

# Omar Khayyám's poems . Link. :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubaiyat_of_Omar_Khayyam

........

You know what Hercules said, "The Gods help those who help themselves."

.

 

Well, we have been helping ourselves for millennia.

 

I am not convinced we have done a terribly satisfactory job ! In retrospect ?

 

.

Mosul .. Few days ago

 

Mike

What is next above us are extraterrestrials. Assuming an ET civilization has the technology that allows them to travel to Earth and watch over us. They could be here in hiding, in the deep oceans, even inside abandoned warehouses. If their technology is sophisticated enough they could evade us very well. Except maybe getting captured on camera once in a while, but nothing definitive.

I will go looking today !

 

Mike

.

I don't know who is throwing -1 points around , but this LOUNGE is supposed to be a non confrontational friendly forum , for lighter discussion.

-------------------------------------------------//-///-------

 

I accept some of what you say Moontonman , particularly the points of the video and the fish . I remember hearing this explained by Richard Fynman .

 

We may be looking for different things . I am NOT trying to find a way to disprove the need for higher beings other than humans .

Why many scientists are ' hell bent ' on trying to disprove anything higher than MAN , I personally think is fool hardy .

It's like trying to disown your parents who brought you up , or your employer who gave you work and wages. NEITHER lead to a happy life .

 

I am personally quite excited with what you have prompted me to think and we have discussed.

To me it has clarified this Heirachy subject that this thread is about , and brought some interesting ideas to my mind ( if not conclusions ) .

They are the following , ( which is totally up for grabs , should anyone be inclined )

 

Within the context of this discussion there COULD EXIST 5 Heirachy, stretching UP and DOWN around us as humans in the context of this ' fish pond ' example .

 

We as humans in this example are in the middle , whereby I ( Heirachy 3 ) can look down and see the Heirachy ( 2) immediately below me . Being aware of the gold fish , count them , care for them , feed them to some extent , and in fact supplied their environment , by being responsible for the pond and water. The Gold fish can look down to a ( Heirachy 1 ) grubs and worms on the bottom of the pool , which I am aware of but not see . There may even be a further Heirachy below that ( say Heirachy 0 ) bacteria .

 

Above me there may be a ( Heirachy 4 ) superhuman beings from another world or invisible environment.

Above that there may be a ( Heirachy 5 ) God .

 

It's interesting and can be demonstrated and proved :=

 

Looking down the Heirachy chain , one step down is very visible or detectable ( humans look in the pool and see fish , and fish look down and see the grubs , possibly grubs look down and see the Bacteria. Probably superhuman beings look down and see us , as well as one step more God looks down and sees it all.

 

Looking up the Heirachy chain , the first step in each case , is possible , but hard . The fish can see us to some extent as they get spooked sometimes , or birds spook them . Humans look up and it appears difficult and ambivalent to see superhuman creatures or God like beings Angels ( although 1000's of people will testify they have) , and as regards any higher still , (well , that's a whole area for discussion in itself . )

 

So there are some very interesting conclusions here, which can go to and beyond ( " it's easier to look down the Heirachy. Chain than up ) . Maybe that's why a lot of people find it difficult to beleive in other people on other planets , Angels , or God ?

 

Mike

are you talking about natural selection?

 

You are making a huge but completely unsupported assertion. No one has said things come out of thin air, physics determines how everything interacts with everything else.

 

Order can arise out of chaos, it can be demonstrated, but the chaos is not a random thing. Physical systems can only interact in certain ways, physical laws determine those interactions. No goals, no direction, Genes simply select for genes that reproduce the best, that allow physical systems to use the available resources in the most efficient way...

 

Chemicals will spontaneously increase their order due to chemistry, chemistry is determined by physics. Some think we just happen to be in a universe that allows this to happen out of a multitude of universes with random constants. I personally think it's more likely that thing are the way they are because it's the only way they can be and us exist to question them...

.

Yes but I am not sure that physics laws are just there. They are either derived by the way all the " stuff of the universe behaves , because of the way it is ,or the way it reacts with everything else " or

" It behaves the way it does for some other mystical reason that we do not understand " .

I understand the mechanism of natural selection , and how things that add advantage can increase the survival rate . But I still do not see how you can just start with NO GOAL,'s , or no BOUNDARIES or start with NOTHING WITHOUT INITIATIVE .

 

It's like saying I am going to build SOMETHING , yes but what ?

 

Mike n

.

 

 

Mike

Perhaps if I put the point here in a 21 st century story it might be more palatable:-

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

" Some inter galactic travelers had their eyes on the small planet we call Earth . It was in an Ideal location , with a little adjustment by moon manipulation , to become a host world to very intelligent life .

 

Millennia passed after seeding various preparatory , environments , and placing certain sea creatures and land animals on various continents.

 

Finally the Intergalactic space beings placed a prototype pair of ( what now , we call humans , on a valley located half way approximately between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea . It was thought they could start a human colony quite successfully at this headwaters of the Tigress and Euphrates rivers . .

 

It's was thought , as a future family of humankind , they could work their way both East to China , South to Africa and West overland toward the Mediterranean Sea , by which time seafaring experience , would put them in good stead for some major sea crossings to the Americas

 

So humankind got a start ( Above map marked green )

 

Now thousands of years later , we have covered the globe ......

 

Soon maybe the Originators will return to Visit in person their PROJECT here on Earth

And see how their project is getting on , and if any adjustments need to be made "

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post Script by the Originators :-

 

We set you up 6000 years ago on a well prepared World , in a fairly beautiful , safe , Land based facility .

You have since explored and populated 90 % of that world .

We returned to take a good look over the last 100 years as to what has been achieved.

 

Well , we have to say , this does not make for ' terribly good reading ' . Although you have made pretty good technological development , you have spent a great deal of the time an resources , knocking the living daylight out of each other , leaving death and destruction , all over the place , at one time place or another and at one time or another "

 

Because you show no great change in this approach , :-

 

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CARRY OUT AN INTERVENTION , ANY TIME SOON

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Mike

What makes you think there is any sort of ultimate goal or direction - that is pure conceit.

 

Well my understanding of genetic algorithms , is that you have to have some form of goal, or the algorithm has nothing to measure its value of success, so as to incorporate some form of feedback . This enables a direction for further success. True , mutations and random number generation can add a complete spurious ( thing ) to arise, but some initial and ongoing driver is required. ( however gentle )

 

Mike

We know where we came from, we are all star dust, we know we were not placed on earth, we evolved here, we know no one placed us here thousands of years ago, We evolved here over billions of years, we know no one paced complex life here, it evolved here, we know human life evolved here.

 

Your hierarchy problem does not exist, between fish and you or between you and the universe..

 

.

 

That is all very well. But things just do not come out of thin air.

 

Genetic Algorithms, do not come from nothing . You need an originator of the parameters for the Algorithm . Boundary conditions do need to be specified . And an objective , must be identified , to allow the algorithm to measure against. To do its feedback calculations .

 

So either some other intelligent life in the constellation of Andromeda did it , or some intelligent life somewhere else in the Universe did it , or something outside the ' whole shabang ' did it ?

Then when the genetic algorithm got into full swing, down line from an origination , some form of ' care taking ' needed to give ultimate goals and direction?

 

Or you would just end up with a black soup everywhere ?

 

Mike

I've heard this argument used by creationists (not you) but the idea of doubling population is flawed. In fact it is thought the overall population growth was quite flat for a very long time other than groups that moved out into uninhabited areas which then were quite common for human populations. There are some hints that civilizations came and went several times before populations grew to the point where there was numbers settled in the same place. I always have wondered if "savages" moving in from wild areas might not have overran small villages or settlements clustered around easily gathered resources. I imagine that such a touch and go method would have prevented seriously large cities for quite some time.

 

You can see a similar process in later populations even when the sedentary populations were arranged in powerful city states. Outsiders would sweep in and take over, often by what was termed barbarians. Sea peoples (circa 1200 to 900 BCE) have been hypothesized to be responsible for an overall decline in civilizations and have held my interest for some time. It would appear the "Sea Peoples" would sweep in on small coastal cities and or islands in the mediterranean area. These invaders evidently disrupted an over all developing civilization at the time and knocked back the advance of organised sedentary peoples significantly.

 

.

O.k. Well I must not loose sight of my objective to classify some form of HEIRACY PRINCIPLE for life around humans experience.

 

So to that end , I must pose a possibly fictitious turn of events , to see if it is possible to " get a perspective "

 

Let us for the moment try and guess what one of my goldfish speculates what is going on outside of its Poøl environment.

It is aware of its bugs on the base of the pool , and imagines there must be more of ' the feeder' creatures up there beyond the surface of the water ( it's sky ) . I wonder where they come from , a long long way away ? Do they live in water , did they build my world and put me and my fellow fishes in this pool . Did they make all these plants around me ?

 

Similarly but on a far larger scale , we look up asking , where did we come from, where we placed here on earth. Where did this vast universe come from ,? Are there creatures of some form in the constellation of Andromedor, who ventured here to Earth , thousands of years ago , transformed the Environment ( our pool ) , and made sure it grew vegetation and trees suitable to make a living environment . Then did they finally introduce Human Life ( equivalent of gold fish ) into the Earth Pond . Is that how it came about ?

Only a thought experiment ! But enough to get a handle on a Heirarcy in principle ?

 

Mike

This interpretation suffers from the fact that other forms of writing or messaging or keeping track of these things would be unlikely to survive. Symbols on hide or reeds or notches on sticks would be unlikely to survive the ravages of time. But the concepts you are talking about could have been around for tens of thousands of years and since trade is demonstrable back to at least 50,000 years I would be careful asserting that this stuff only started 5,000 years ago due to what is effectively sample bias...

 

.

I can take the point you make about the medium used to write , if stone tablet lasts , whereas parchment could easily decay to nothing.

 

However the point about age of civilisation coming from the recognised sequence of nations , previously mentioned spread over 6000 years . We have a problem if you expand that to 50,000 years. We would have been over run 40,000 years ago. My reasoning being. That we have grown to the staggering coverage of the earth , in the conventional civilisations in just 6000 years . A further 45,000 years of population growth , would swamp us out of existence , surely . And if you are saying they were not breeding , much in those extra 45,000 years , they would have died out , eaten by predators or some other malady , surely .?

 

 

Ps duplication by doubling produces amazing growth in numbers .

 

Eg if you fold a 1/1000 th of an inch piece of paper or card, large enough ( , 47 times , ) it will be thick enough to reach the moon .

 

So population growth by doubling soon goes ' viral'

 

Mike

Early introduction of Human Life here . Green

 

Coincidentally Not far north of Mosul.

 

 

Mike

Well wikipedia isn't exactly gospel, but it is a good starting point, my point would be that there seems to be some disagreement on what makes a civilization. You seem to think it involves writing, some would seem to say it's more of a group of people who have a working society. I am a bit torn between them. Neither would seem to be 100% on point.

 

I don't think it was writing , as we think of getting out a type writer, computer or pen and paper .

My understanding of it is , that trading was possible by chisling in stone tablets , how many bags of grain, I agree with you , in exchange for herbs and spices in so many jars. So we don't forget , ( like you said 3 bags , not 5 bags ) .

 

Mike

It would seem there is a difference of opinion here.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/21/indigenous-australians-most-ancient-civilisation-on-earth-dna-study-confirms

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization

Yes you may have noticed in reading through the Wikipedia discussion that when it got down to CIVILISATION THEY ALL SEEMED TO BE IN THE FEW THOUSAND YEARS RANGE .

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/0276f01aae98bd3951caf44cb42ccba5.png

 

Mike

I was abiker most of my life, so I do connect with you there.

 

What bothers me is the idea that all civilization started in the middle east, this is demonstrably not true. The Aztecs, Mayans, and other western hemisphere civilizations arose independently from the middle east as did China and possibly India. Writing does indeed seem to be the key but strange symbols found all over the world that seem to be connected indicates there was some symbolism going on far back in the past. Drawings in cliffs and in caves in the western hemisphere date back way before the middle east and are a type of writing. The symbolism was more visual than symbolic but it occurred even before the asians migrated to the americas. In fact these first americans are thought to have come over in boats as part of the polynesian, australian aborigines who settled the pacific island chains well before 6,000 years ago. Some authors put this as far back as 75,000 years ago. They built boats, large canoes really, that they used to colonise the entire pacific basin when even the chinese were still wondering how to keep cave lions out.

 

These waves of peoples, at least I think, were probably connected by very thin trails as one civilization fell some of the people transferred their knowledge to other areas. I'm not sure how continuous this was but we have evidence that the chinese traded with australian aborigines before the middle east was "civilized" well let's say stacking rocks instead...

 

Well , I have to say I am not an authority on all of this . I read , I watch tv documentaries . I read books .

I also have to sift mentally between what is conjecture , what is new findings , and what core information has been central for years. What I stated , some is very current . Eg China getting its start from the Middle East , within the 300 years BC , period . A lot is much more recent than we have been led to beleive .

 

If you took a civilisation like Romans , their evidence is all over the place and they are very recent like 100-200 BC to 300 AD . IF you go through a lot of civilisations you will find most of them are in this 4000 BC to 2000 AD . So my Mesopotamia ( Tigres and Euphrates ) to today is in this 6000 year span .

 

Mike

No, I am not talking about monkeys in caves, that is insulting to humans. Do you think The first north americans were monkeys living in caves? Just because their cities were made of wood and not stone doesn't mean they didn't exist. Humans with a reasonable amount of technology spread around the world at least 50,000 years ago. There is some evidence coming to light that humans might have been in NA way before 50,000 years ago. These people were not monkeys living in caves, they were just as human as you, they were travelers at times, at other times they built structures that did not last due not being made of stone and bricks. Are you going to say that only people who worked with stone and bricks were people and rest were monkeys living in caves?

 

There are stone structures found on the ocean bottom off the cost of India that date back far more than 6,000 years. Do you claim these guys were monkeys living in caves?

 

I am not willing to say these humans were not civilized, I see no reason to assume they didn't have writing methods that simply did not survive due to the materials they were recorded on and the rot of tropical climates.

 

The civilization of my own ancestors was wiped out before it could be documented by disease brought accidentally by the first europeans. Not all native americans were monkey people living in caves, In fact there was a diverse and elevated civilization here way before the spanish arrived and it wasn't brought here from the middle east.

 

NO . That is the last thing I want to do , is cast aspersions on any group of people , including your own . Just because some groups of people were more nomadic than others , that is fine . If you knew me better you would realise I am more of a normad , motor cyclist . ( 10 different bikes up through my life . Now I am married with 4 daughters ( grown up ) , I had to become a settled house type person .

 

No my American history is not too good , and I apologise , no offence meant.

The cave , evidence I was really referring to was the odd scattering of bones in far flung caves and theories as to origin .

It just so happens that most tablet and trade evidence seems to emanate from Messapotania, east to China , south to Africa, East to Europe and the Mediterranean, , north to Mongolia and Russia . AMERICA you will need to fill me in on , as you clearly know more than me. I believe Alaska and Russia crossing figured somehow in all this ?

 

 

I still believe all this occurred 4000- 6000 years ago . Civilisation not wandering isolated bands of people .

 

Mike

No, not everyone, those of us who understand deep time know the humans have been around for at least 150,000 years, possibly much longer. But more importantly civilization has been traced back to 10,000 BCE some suggest it sprang up and fell much earlier but that is not much more than speculation at this point. Contact with Angels is something someone has claimed with no evidence what so ever. To suggest humans couldn't have developed civilization without help "from above" is insulting to our ancestors and totally unsupported...

 

Why would you suggest such a thing?

 

.

These 150,000 years and 10,000 years figures are rather picked out of the air , and do NOT relate to CIVILISATION , .

 

Evidence of tablets with cuneiform writing are accepted as ( within the context of CIVILISATION 4000 to 6000 years ago.

 

Pre civilisation and monkeys in caves is all very speculative .

 

Civilisations , produced villages , towns , and cities like MOSUL, pointed out on the map .

Also civilisation started to blossom , in the Tigres and Euphrates river basins (Iran Iraq ) , Egypt , Palestine , etc

 

The rest is History .

 

Mike

I don't understand what you are asserting, can you explain?

 

 

Despite ideas some people have of ape man or others found in caves , scattered about the world ,.......it has been shown by scholars that ACTUAL CIVILISED MAN grew up in the Tigres and Euphrates region see map .

The site of MOSUL existed then 4000- 6000 years ago . People started putting cuneiform writing on stone , to record transactions ,

 

Then civilisation spread all over the world, :- to China, to Africa , to India to Palestine , to the Mediterranean Sea to UK. TO ALL ACROSS THE GLOBE

 

The rest is history .

 

These early contacts with Angels occurred in the area highlighted by the Map of Mesopotamia given in previous post .

 

Mike

Can anyone vouch for any religious imagery? I cannot take any religious imagery or tenets or any other supernatural idea until some evidence it exists is given.

 

As I have just entered on another reference to this region of the world .

 

MOSUL existed 4000- 5000 Years ago as civilisation got a start in the Tigres and Euphrates region . The other day the tower in MOSUL got blown up

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/24/opinions/destruction-mosul-mosque-opinion-rizvi/index.html

 

Map of region civilisation got started 4000-6000 years ago .

 

SEE. MOSUL Then and now , central to the whole area .

 

Mike

THE END OF. MOSUL seems to be approaching as a final battle

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/24/opinions/destruction-mosul-mosque-opinion-rizvi/index.html

 

As by a CNN NEWS item .

 

How much of a coincidence is that MOSUL figured 4000- 5000 years ago as a start to Civilisation as we know it .

 

See MOSUL in relation to area of start of civilisation .. Dead Central .. Coincidence?

 

 

Mike

Well , I can not vouch for your image , bit scary .

 

Some early Angels in the story from the Bible , speak of some coming to earth and producing giant Sons .

 

If nothing else , these two or three cited episodes , show mankind has peered into the night sky and envisioned ' a higher dimension '. HIGHER HEIRACHY.

 

Mike

Religions also speak of multiarmed elephant people...

 

Have not seen that one ! Have you a picture ?

 

Mike

Just as soon as we can nibble on their toes I will consider it...

 

.

I would have to search it out , but on the Christian direction , I recall a human once wrestled with an angel .

 

I think other religions speak of physical contact very occasionally with an Angel . I painted one a year ago .

 

... Can't find it ! But this is the image I copied it from !

 

 

An angel was supposed to be around at the start of current civilisation north east of Mosel , toward the Caspian Sea .

 

Today an Image of Mosel haunts our screens . The near END of Mosel .

 

 

Mike

Yes I see what you mean , and they have found some bacteria in outer space.

But breaking up the overall environment of space, the universe, and everything into manageable chunks , my desire is to think in terms of ' who ' is contained in which ' chunk' , and can we arrange those ' chunks ' into some form of Heirachy.

For example I am thinking of the goldfish in my pond being ' there' in their world . And me being 'here ' in my world . See following two pictures taken 5 minutes ago .

Them fish in their realm

image.jpeg

Me , human in my realm ( world )

image.jpeg

Who is in the next realm ( universe beyond ) ? Of the growing Heirachy?

image.jpeg

Mike

I think to move forward , or rather upward we need to take the existing ' Heirachy ' of fish in pond looking

down a stage in the heirachy to the grubs on the floor of the pool. Or more relevant look upward to their master ( me ) above the water surface. To them , this appears to them to go on for ever , with unknown ' things ' trees , Sky , stars . .

 

Now it is our turn to look upwards , with a legacy of thinking previously discussed. Government .

 

Are /is there expectation for anything Heirachy like ( government like ) .

 

Well we certainly did not MAKE the universe we see , as we look upward . Whatever or whoever made the universe we see as we look upward , must have been made or made itself , in such a way as to act as a government to us as an upward Heirachy.

 

Is there evidence ?

 

Well at least 50 % of the population currently beleive there is a God of some form or another , so can we look to a God or a body of higher grade life than Humans . Most religions put forward various ideas for our origination , creation . Most of these religions speak of Angel like creatures , that acted as ' go betweens ' or ' message givers ' . Could this body of creatures including an overarching God , act as a Goverment of mankind . The next heirarcy up . This as mysterious as we are to the gold fish ?

 

Mike

I disagree, I see no reason for a who or a next realm. The only think that possibly comes to mind is the simulation hypothesis...

 

What is the simulation hypothesis

 

Mike