Mike Smith Cosmos

7 hours ago, Area54 said:

 

I notice you choose not to take up the challenge of defending your heirarchy concept properly.

 

Far from it . 

Not in particular order of priority, I did feel your comment about " fish " , a contention that I feel is wrong . 

As one of the HIERACHY layers , where Godlike and Humans are the other two ,

FISH  I feel make a good intermediate layer . 

The range of fish can cover from the ' human SPERM  where its size is very, very , small , right up to massive PREHISTORIC SPERM WHALES  . ( tremendous size ) . 

The fact that we relate to them , can observe them , catch them . Have them in tanks, ponds and most importantly in my investigation here , draw conclusions about how this can help in  investigating other links across other HIERACHY borders. 

As regards other members , underneath , there are quite a few who would be curious to know the answer as to whether it possible to experience intelligence at a higher level than Humans . I was suggesting that maybe we could use our experience with learning how to relate to fish , to the higher level  ' challenge ' ? 

Mike 

29 minutes ago, Area54 said:

Hello Mike, sorry for being direct, but that is just silly.

Photons are also "everywhere" and so, apart from being a bit clumpy, is dark matter. And even more so dark energy. And even in intergalactic space there are plenty of protons hanging around. Maybe you need to follow the Hindu pantheon to allow for this multiplicity of possible gods.

I've just noticed that two post backs you replied to one of your own posts and then in the subsequent post replied to that one. I thought this was a discussion forum, not a blog. Some might consider your approach a bit rude. Others might wonder if it is the only way you can get a conversation at your own level. I just think it is also silly.

If you want a discussion, why don't you seriously address the challenge issued to you by several members that there is precious meaningful evidence for your claimed heirarchy. That heirarchy is only "shaping up" in your mind. Nowhere else. Are you up to the challenge? If so, let's hear no more about fishes, let's have a bread and butter approach.

Yes, well o.k. 

But I thought it was quite enlightening in the context of Science , that persons , like the majority of individuals ( including myself ) , partaking in discussions and reading on this science forum , have a constant mental battle in their head . 

Namely , how do I reconcile GOD  with current SCIENCE SPEAK . ? 

I felt this might just be relevant to this issue . Namely how can one , in the same breath speak about God and a Scientific Subject . 

It would seem to me that this EVERYWHERE NOTION  of both Higgs Bosons , Photons, Dark Energy and anything else that is believed to exist EVERYWHERE  about the universe , might just give us a useful reconciliation of this oft , missunderstood notion ?  ( How can one reconcile God and Science ? ) .

If one has chosen to accept only half the story ( either God or Science ) , then that is a personal choice . However I would contend , half the story makes for an incomplete picture , and thus an incomplete understanding of REALITY ? ( No ? )  Personally I would prefer a complete picture . To me it does answer some very interesting Philosophical questions ? 

Like how did the whole thing get started in the first place? Etc etc 

mike

On 28 July 2017 at 1:22 AM, Cap'n Refsmmat said:

Click the little bullet/star before the title and it'll take you to the first unread post. They had to hide it for some reason.

Where is this " little bullet /star before the title " , 

i am equally lost .

mike 

On 28 July 2017 at 7:05 AM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Many years ago ;

 ( in the 1990's I think a Book was written " The God Particle " ),  I think it was to do with the early discussion of the proposed Higgs Boson .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Particle_(book)

since the recent evidence from ' the large hadron collider ' , this has been supported. ( since then , when the name GOD PARTICLE , was given more as a 'Nick Name ') 

So the idea that a single Higgs particle could become the seed of multiplication  to spread across the whole current 13.8 billion year old universe at large , with a name association of ' the God Particle(s)  '

that is in fact " EVERYWHERE"  inferring ( GOD , whatever that is ) , is everywhere ,  lends itself to the idea of a HIERACHY  of some sort , everywhere , but above us as Humans somehow ? Due to the fact that we are not everywhere , or in any way in control ! Even of the Earth , let alone anywhere else ! So by dint of this , we must be lower in the HIERACHY . 

So this HIERACHY thing is shaping up somewhat . 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

1. The GOD particle , appears everywhere in the UNIVERSE being part of

............  1st Top HIERACHY . 

2. The HUMAN race , appears everywhere on EARTH being part of the

............... 2nd  HIERACHY . 

3. The FISHES  en mass , appears everywhere in SEA / RIVERS/PONDS , being a fundamental part of the

............... 3rd  HIERACHY .

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike 

If what I have proposed above is correct . 

Which of course is only suggestions . Then :- 

If the Higgs Bosons are everywhere about the Universe , and GOD is everywhere about the universe , then it surely follows that  :-

GOD UTILISES OR IS MADE OF  ( amongst everything else consisting of ) HIGGS BOSONS ! 

Mike 

Trevor ,

i appreciate your comment , as this is the real point I am making , or at least one of the things I am saying . That certainly for me , a picture or sketch , helps me understand the ' thing' under consideration . 

I literally see it , in my ' minds eye '

I am then able to develop understanding from the visible model . 

I do go on , if I find the subject personally interesting . I go on to paint it. 

This I intend for the subject of this thread.  As it as a philosophical idea , a very profound statement . 

Rather than ' forcing something to happen ' , I am suggesting :-

FINDING THE SPACE  for it TO HAPPEN IS PARAMOUNT ' 

then a further two things are necessary 

-------

Creating an Initiative ... Then a small amount of energy ...then the space with minimal resistance ...    

--------

Away you go . 

Now for me I need to get paper and paint , find the space which needs to be in the right location ,perhaps out in the country somewhere , or on a boat trip , or perhaps a cafe . ...... I have the initiative .........minimal energy and minimal pressure ( energy ) on the brush and palet knife .........

away I will go ...

mike 

Yesterday and Today ( 30/07/2017) , I went out on an Artistic / philosophical excursion into the countryside , with the express endeavour to come up with an image to paint of

my ... THEORY OF EVERYTHING  . So so as to paint it as an image . What abstract image I could come up with that would illustrate this Theory of Everything , I knew not . 

I landed in Exeter yesterday down at the Keyside , Docks of private yachts , at a hostiliary of note . A newly produced cafe on the dock side . Settled back in the rain with a view of the Yachts in various states of disarray and with coffee in hand THOUGHT . The rain made me change my venue and join a tour up the canal to " double locks " my journey on the canal gave me a  pelethera  of applications of this 

" theory of everything " 

the following is a few pictures of illustration of 

" ANYTHING OR EVERYTHING CAN OCCUR PROVIDED THERE IS AN INITIATIVE FOR IT TO HAPPEN , AND A FREE 'ish passage , for it to occur . Provided there is an initiative for it to occur and a free passage for it to occur , with little or no resistance . "

The following is the schematic of the theory , followed  by yesterday's examples illustrating the application of this theory . 

Example from the journey on the canal . 

Note the first image is the schematic of the principle of the " theory of everything " 

second is an example of this theory in action that many boat user take advantage of . Namely .

the owners , or users of the boats use this phenomenon on the " surface of the ocean " / canal .

As captain of the boat , they form an ' Initiative ' , namely to move up the canal to a new location at " Double Locks' . The boat requires an absolute minimum of energy , as there is no real impediment to their movement up the canal . As the water is ' dead flat ' , I mean absolutely flat . There is no requirement to overcome gravity , as the boat however heavy is NOT USING ENERGY  to go upwards . It does require a modest energy derived from a diesel motor to ' put, put ' with a minimal energy to overcome water resistance . This will be a minimum at a ' put, put ' speed . A common phenomenon , yet fulfilling this thread theory . 

" anything can happen , with an initiative , small energy , and nothing ' much ' to stop it happening . " 

mike 

On 21 July 2017 at 9:14 AM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

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I have been reading a June copy of the New Scientist . Article "the Higgs Bang " how the world's most famous particle also started the Universe.

 

It splits it into two very early time Periods .

 

To quote " The universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed , trillions of trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a Tic Tac . In a mere fraction of a second the universe expanded,by as many orders of magnitude as it would in the following 13.8 billion years.

Believe it or not ,this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a slower , tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the universe looks today . But there is something missing : What did the inflating ? " quote from New Scientist 10 th June 2017 Page 30 .

 

I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and augustrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability .

 

I can only think it is a fitting name to give this Bunch of Exrtaordinary ,Top Hierachy Scientists extraordinaire . The description ."God" and his helpers The Hierachy up from Humans .

 

Quotation about the early universe above : New Scientist 10th June 2017 COVER STORY ( author John Cartwright )

 

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I am not sure that I explained the above clearly enough . I may have used a double negative . Namely :-

 

" I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and orhcastrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability . " what I meant was , I CAN CONCIEVE it ! ( with massive resources and intelligence and skills ) ...

 

" I believe the massive project of getting the very early universe going both from a Higgs particle inflating to a bundle of fundamental particles exceedingly , exceedingly , exceedingly dense containing the ingredients to go into phase two expansion . Would clearly take engineers of extraordinary capability to multi multi times that of the CERN project . Aware as we are of the facility , personnel , and scientific understanding , design and build of CERN . This first inflationary phase taking zero time ( our time ) . This is CONCIEVABLE . 

 

Then , these extraordinary scientific beings , to take this " marble sized " concentrated matter to expand on its journey up the 13. 800,Billion year expansion . To become the Universe we know today .

 

It is conceivable to have such personnel and machinery to do such a project , having THE CERN PROJECT , as a micro miniature project on this sort of matter , but not on the same scale . That is why the proposed " early start to the Universe , I S Concievable , even with only our current knowledge . But even in my imaginary model :- the personnel , intelligence , facilities needed would be , pardon the pun , " ASTRONOMICAL " by proportion . However imaginable , and supportive of this thread , that there are other superior intelligences, around in the universe .

 

THIS TOO I can just about consider it CONCIEVABLE 

 

But more to the point , if this was so , as somebody , or something had to initiate and Orchestrate it :- then ,

 

The idea of a further Hierarchy above humans to achieve the above , is in fact a necessity . .

 

Mike

Many years ago ;

 ( in the 1990's I think a Book was written " The God Particle " ),  I think it was to do with the early discussion of the proposed Higgs Boson .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Particle_(book)

since the recent evidence from ' the large hadron collider ' , this has been supported. ( since then , when the name GOD PARTICLE , was given more as a 'Nick Name ') 

So the idea that a single Higgs particle could become the seed of multiplication  to spread across the whole current 13.8 billion year old universe at large , with a name association of ' the God Particle(s)  '

that is in fact " EVERYWHERE"  inferring ( GOD , whatever that is ) , is everywhere ,  lends itself to the idea of a HIERACHY  of some sort , everywhere , but above us as Humans somehow ? Due to the fact that we are not everywhere , or in any way in control ! Even of the Earth , let alone anywhere else ! So by dint of this , we must be lower in the HIERACHY . 

So this HIERACHY thing is shaping up somewhat . 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

1. The GOD particle , appears everywhere in the UNIVERSE being part of

............  1st Top HIERACHY . 

2. The HUMAN race , appears everywhere on EARTH being part of the

............... 2nd  HIERACHY . 

3. The FISHES  en mass , appears everywhere in SEA / RIVERS/PONDS , being a fundamental part of the

............... 3rd  HIERACHY .

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike 

.hi Moontainman , 

In response to your interesting comments , 

you clearly have a similar relationship with your fish as me.  So I am trying to draw something out of this ( inter hierarchy ) activity, feeling , depth, etc which , if it is indicative of ( inter hierarchy) behaviour and feeling , may help, in trying to understand any possible , activity, feelings, communication , and other things , that could just be experienced, understood , and explored toward a Higher HIERACHY  to us humans . 

Namely , I am friendly towards my fish , so maybe the next level up is friendly to us . The fish are ' small beer ' in a days task to me , so maybe we are small beer to the layer above , , and you could go through a whole scenario of ( a ) the relationship we have with our fish and the proportion of time and effort we spend in attending to the fish , what are feelings are toward the fish , what happens if I die, what happens if they die , whatever you care to propose , THEN turn the thing on its head and make yourself the bottom in this particular ( 2 layer hierarchy ) and surmise what or how the activity and relationship could work upwards possibly ? ( guessing , mind game , speculation ) . Then if you feel so moved , try out as a mind game , something , like , if one particular fish ( unlike all the other fish came over to the near edge of the pond and stared at you ( eye to eye ) , went away and came back a few moments later with another accompanying fish , ( what would you think of that ) and what could be the equivalent ( up the layer of our hierarchy ) . 

Like , I said before , I have tried it out quite seriously , not playing , alone, not where you are going to be seen  , deadly serious and meaningfully , and the results have been quite interesting .  ( not an apparition , not gold dropping out of the sky , but something reasonably  significant BUT CAN BE AMBIGUOUS . ( meaning anyone else you told it to , could say " yes but that is just a fluke , accident , or  " 

Sirendipody . .*

Try it out , but you must mean it ( that is important ) . 

Mike 

* serendipity 

Here is evidence from a) my ongoing experimental OBSERVATION , and my discussion of the subject of a higher HIERACHY above Humans able and likely to take part in ' Intervention of the human world wide condition  ' when it becomes beyond our capability. 

In the same way as I ( human ) , INTERVENE ,. In the condition of the fish POND , with activity that is beyond the capability of the gold fish . 

And interestingly in this particular INTERVENTION  , the fish are not ' PHASED ' by the intervention . By their minor yet comforting participation in this intervention , they illustrate we as ( humans ) need not necessarily fear participating in an intervention from further up the HIERACHY . 

Note ,  in the following photograph of my pushing a metal mesh weed collector into the pool in their immediate proximity . They are NOT FREAKED, or swim away , they are familiar with me , my periodic intervention , and appear to enjoy it and swim with the flow of the net ! 

One orange fish can be seen almost touching , or being touched by the metal gauze net , (  just below the top edge of the net )

Yours or anyone else's personal incredulity has no bearing on reality...

 

And being a ' part ' , I make up the ' reality of the Universe ' as does each contributory atom in ' Matter ' ?

I thought this was the essence of a thread in the ' Philosophy ' section of this Science Forum ?

------------/----------------

Ps I appreciate I am on fairly ' shaky ground ' on this point . As I was more into a figure of speech , than I was into trying to win , yet another speculation ! So you deserve ' downing me ' , on that particular Phrase ! ( HI ) .

However , I am deadly serious on the sectiment of my overall remark , that

The Universe must be consistent , for it to hold together sufficiently well to both ' Exist Physically ' , and relevant here , maintain living organisms . And under particular issue here , that

A HIERARCHY , . MUST EXIST , of the type I am discussing , namely Not Material Substance , but of ,

' CARING ANIMAL CONGLOMERATION ' type .

If ' CARING ' Is not a necessities in the UNIVERSE , the ' God Help Us ' , is all I can say , if that is not a 'metaphor too far ' ?

Mike

What. A thrill to look out of the restaurant window at LANDS END .

To gaze across toward North America .across the great Ocean .

Just offshore the last of England sticks up out of the Ocean .

Mike

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I have been reading a June copy of the New Scientist . Article "the Higgs Bang " how the world's most famous particle also started the Universe.

It splits it into two very early time Periods .

To quote " The universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed , trillions of trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a Tic Tac . In a mere fraction of a second the universe expanded,by as many orders of magnitude as it would in the following 13.8 billion years.

Believe it or not ,this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a slower , tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the universe looks today . But there is something missing : What did the inflating ? " quote from New Scientist 10 th June 2017 Page 30 .

I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and augustrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability .

I can only think it is a fitting name to give this Bunch of Exrtaordinary ,Top Hierachy Scientists extraordinaire . The description ."God" and his helpers The Hierachy up from Humans .

Quotation about the early universe above : New Scientist 10th June 2017 COVER STORY ( author John Cartwright )

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I am not sure that I explained the above clearly enough . I may have used a double negative . Namely :-

" I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and orhcastrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability . " what I meant was , I CAN CONCIEVE it ! ( with massive resources and intelligence and skills ) ...

" I believe the massive project of getting the very early universe going both from a Higgs particle inflating to a bundle of fundamental particles exceedingly , exceedingly , exceedingly dense containing the ingredients to go into phase two expansion . Would clearly take engineers of extraordinary capability to multi multi times that of the CERN project . Aware as we are of the facility , personnel , and scientific understanding , design and build of CERN . This first inflationary phase taking zero time ( our time ) . THIS IS CONCEEVABLE

Then , these extraordinary scientific beings , to take this " marble sized " concentrated matter to expand on its journey up the 13. 800,Billion year expansion . To become the Universe we know today .

It is conceivable to have such personnel and machinery to do such a project , having THE CERN PROJECT , as a micro miniature project on this sort of matter , but not on the same scale . That is why the proposed " early start to the Universe , I S Concievable , even with only our current knowledge . But even in my imaginary model :- the personnel , intelligence , facilities needed would be , pardon the pun , " ASTRONOMICAL " by proportion . However imaginable , and supportive of this thread , that there are other superior intelligences, around in the universe .

THIS TOO I can just about consider it CONCEIVABLE .

But more to the point , if this was so , as somebody , or something had to initiate and Orchestrate it :- then ,

The idea of a further Hierarchy above humans to achieve the above , is in fact a necessity . .

Mike

Mike, that is just silly. The antics of a bunch of jumped up monkeys on a lump of debris floating around one of half a billion stars in a galaxy that contains at least half a billion more galaxies is hardly going to be in the spotlight. "Seagull poops on pensioner" might get a one paragraph mention in the Whitsatble Gazette, but it will never make the New York Times.

Yes, I can understand your reasoning.

That is unless we are the FIRST Civilisation to appear in the great spread of time .!

Someone had to be first ! And we screwed up !

Mike

The universe is indifferent to your incredulity.

But in a way , that issue , in a way was one of the central reasonings of this thread .

That was : -

That my observation of

HIERACHY In these sequences going in the top down direction , eg from the human down to my fish in the pond etc , had a gradient downward of concern, interest in wellbeing , feeding, protection etc ( say me for my fish ) . So if the HIERACHY is to follow the same style ( which is often the case with systems throughout the Universe, eg inverse square law , etc ) . Then , far from being ' Indifferent ' , I would suggest that if there is intelligence abroad across the Universe , that I am suggesting THERE IS . , then I would suggest than far from being " Indifferent " to the Human Species , we are very much in the ' spotlight ' at the moment , as indeed many television documentaries illustrate , with talk of GLOBAL WARMING , EARTHS HUSBANDRY , POPULATION, , RESCOURCES, , VIOLENCE , , CRIME , ATROCETIES, WARS , Etc , ETC. To name but a few of the issues that a Universal Overseeing System. would be bound to notice , and come to assistance. and or radical sort out .

Hense it would behoove us currently to be on the lookout for such intervention , lest we fail to step aside from being caught up in the wrong place when adjustments are being made .

A bit like in ( Hitch Hikers guide to the Galaxy , when a trans universe highway was coming strait through where the Earth was, and so the earth was to be obliterated ! ) [ just a flippant remark , not to be taken seriously ] .

Seriously though , I do think it is honestly serious that we address the likelihood of an 'Earth Inspection ' at this time from higher up the Hierachy , and what we need to do urgently worldwide , is to accommodate serious , radical , overall changes . There are vague movements in this direction with things like CO 2 emission and global warming , but there is far more besides that need hughe attention . James Lovelock , made vaste noises in the environment direction . But that is just the ' tip of the iceburge ' . Vaste, Radical changes are needed , today / tomorrow . Which I would have no doubt would be acceptable to a Higher Order , if they were achieved !

Mike

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I shall bow back in long enough to clarify one point and emphasise another.

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I do appreciate your comment , although not necessarily agreeing with them.

 

I have been reading a June copy of the New Scientist . Article "the Higgs Bang " how the world's most famous particle also started the Universe.

 

It splits it into two very early time Periods .

 

To quote " The universe began as a hot speck of energy, and for an instant remained just that. Then it blew up : from this initial seed , trillions of trillions of times smaller than an atom , everything suddenly ballooned into the gargantuan proportions of a Tic Tac . In a mere fraction of a second the universe expanded,by as many orders of magnitude as it would in the following 13.8 billion years.

Believe it or not ,this burst of cosmological inflation , followed by a slower , tamer expansion , is the most sensible way to explain how the universe looks today . But there is something missing : What did the inflating ? " quote from New Scientist 10 th June 2017 Page 30 .

 

I cannot believe that such a ginormous Scientific project ( of the very early universe) , was NOT contrived and augustrated by the Earliest of Universal Engineering Scientists of Extraordinary skills and capability .

 

I can only think it is a fitting name to give this Bunch of Exrtaordinary ,Top Hierachy Scientists extraordinaire . The description ."God" and his helpers The Hierachy up from Humans .

 

Quotation about the early universe above : New Scientist 10th June 2017 COVER STORY ( author John Cartwright )

 

Mike

Let me be blunt. If we adopt your approach of hoping that someone, or something, out there, or up there is going to come to our aid, then that is an abrogation of our responsibility for our own futures and for that of our planet. It is an irresponsible and, I must say, an immature approach. It contributes to the problems and cannot, in any way, be characterised as an informed, useful or sound position.

 

I do not wish or intend to give offence Mike, but I consider your view to be a dangerous one. I urge you reconsider your position. I doubt there is much more to be said on the matter from my perspective, so thank you for your time and courtesy. I'll probably bow out of this one.

Well that is a shame , that you are bowing out , as I have enjoyed your ' jousting ' on this subject . I think sometimes it is a shame , that the first mention of higher life forms , or God ( whatever God is ) . Sends shivers down scientists ' timbers' ( as is ' shiver me timbers' ) .

I am currently discussing this subject with an old friend of mine ( 40- years known ) who does not believe there is a God as such , and wonders how I ' see ' God fitting in to science , yet he follows science and is an ex Draghtsman and Artist. . He is not against discussion , of quite what is meant by God , where it is , and how does science fit in . To the Big picture ?

My retort is that I do not thing God is at some specified position , but rather he is absolutely everywhere.

So , like some astronomically gigantuant material Internet , he is able to see , do , answer, inact , anywhere , at any time , throughout the universe. So this little province of earth is in his domain , and it's time part of his domain needs sorting . I do not think that is unreasonable . He has left it alone for long enough , to see if we can regulate our own affairs . But clearly we are not making a very good job of it , so . time is up !

A radicle change is imminent . Both for the better and some really major adjustments.

Mike

Mike, if I understand your argument it is, in outline, this.

 

We have messed up the planet, our relationships between countries, individuals and man's relationship with nature. We have had millenia to get it right and we are failing sadly.

Therefore we need outside help to correct the problems. Therefore I believe there is outside help available and, given how bad things are now, it will makes its presence felt soon.

 

If that is not what you meant, please explain your thinking, because that is what has come across in multiple posts from you.

 

If that is what you mean, can you not see how ludicrous it is? - A classic example of wishful thinking.

Well , your summation of my feeling on human history are not wildly adrift from how I feel about human history.

I can only use my HIERARCHY model as a means of explaining how I imagine a sort out of the situation will be accomplished.

Namely :-

If I was finding a succession of days or weeks that I came each morning to look at my fish pond and found that the expansion of the gold fish population ( which does happen in my pond , currently three new black ,goldfish, in addition to the 8 , various sized orange ' goldfish ' ) . That the pond became littered with bits of mutilated fish , strewn about the pond and in fact on the banks and surrounding area. Also some of my favourite mature ,Goldfish , though still alive , were torn with gashes and now looking up at me with fishy ' falorne' appearance and stare, would I not try and make a judgement ,what might have caused this desiccation of my beautiful fish pond environment?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So I choose to make a , 'hide ', and observe for a night or more what is going on . I see these ' birds ' comming down in the very early morning when everyone is still asleep :- swooping , pecking , piercing , generally causing devastation of my tranquil pool.

Would I not lay in wait one week . When I observe the offending birds , carefully capture them , and stop them permanently from having any access whatsoever from visiting my pool .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe this is the sort of scenario that now currently awaits the Earth , from a HEIRACHY above us . For an extended period . Our Human , earth bound version , of attempts at accomplishing this sort of solution doesn't really work very well ! It needs to come from the Hierarchies above humanity .

" MINI, MINI , TECKLE, and PARSIN . .... They have been 'weighed in the balance ' and found wanting "

From a famous historic example from the fall of Babylonian Civilisation .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Such might be happening , ( or about to happen ) , quite dramatically and / or quite silently , as we speak ! And may extend for quite some time !

Mike

This is equivalent to me saying, "My finances are in bad shape, my employment prospects are minimal, my savings depleted, my expenses on the rise. I definitely need to think of winning the lottery."

 

It is a silly idea and more than that, a dangerous one. It offers a fanciful solution that relies on something beyond us that is only imagined and not proven, rather than addressing the problem through our own knowledge and skills. Shame on you.

 

 

 

It is not a solution. It is a cowardly reliance upon someone else to help us out of the mess of our own creation.

No. We have had a ' fair crack of the whip ,' over the last few thousand years , and our record is not good .

You do not need me to itemise all our , attempts at living with one another , in peace and harmony . But mostly these times have been a fairly dismal failure . We cannot say we have not had the freedom to try different ' methods of control of each other and the environment . The history of these times makes a good read if one likes war and oppression , and a bad read if you were unfortunate to be born in the poorer conditions .

It looks like a forced change is due , by a rearrangement of affairs from the administration from elsewhere .

I do not think it would work , by just Hoping things will change . I think change will be forthcoming for our own good . If you can accept interference from further up the HEIRARCHY .

Mike

A careful reading of your posts inlcines me to accept the reality of extraterrestrial life, as you are certainly on another planet.

 

 

 

 

That borders on the fatuous. The key word in that statement is "If" and my point is that the evidence to turn that "if" into an "is" is most certainly incomplete, ambigous and insufficient. Making confident pronouncements to the contrary, vigorously expressing opionions, referencing third and fourth hand anecdotes, simply does not cut it.

 

 

It need not belong to anyone. Why do you insist that such must be the case? Why do you demand that there be a creator? What makes you think I - or anyone - is claiming the it all came out of nothing. (Setting aside that "things" come out of nothing all the time. See https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-virtual-particles-rea/ Do you deny their existence?)

 

 

Unsubstantiated anecdotes from the gullible are hardly the basis for a sound belief system. Do you understand what real evidence is? To date I see little evidence that you do and a great deal to the contrary. As the saying goes, we are all entitled to our own beliefs, but not our own facts.

 

 

This has all the hallmarks of Christian indoctrination - man given dominion over the animals. It's anthropocentric claptrap. If it were true it's a pretty sorry mess we are making of it. I'd rather run with inow's view that we are animals. At least that way we can use the excuse of having been driven by instinct, committed to personal short-term survival and sufficiency.

 

 

Asimov had little or no predictive elements in his stories. In proposing the Three Laws of Robotics he highlighted a future problem and a possible solution. Other than that most of his "predictions" are plot devices. He was, above all, a superb story teller.

 

From Darwin onward, almost every investigator into the origin of life viewed the sea as the birthplace of life. His writings reflect that view. It is most certainly not a view original to him in any way. He was a great lover of the sea - I refer you to his book(s) on diving, called IIRC, The Reefs of Taprobane.

 

 

The fish - man interface is the only one supported by evidence and lots of it. Meanwhile, I think your own passionate belief system, based on an extrapolation of your personal experience with other lifeforms, does provide an interesting illustration of how early man's religious beliefs may have emerged. I thank you for that insight.

We definitely need to think beyond the earth , as we are nearing capacity now, and the overcrowding is starting to point toward :-

Disputes over land masses, food shortages in some parts of this world , pollution due to our world wide industrialisation , and resources handling as well as the energy extraction from material substances like oil and coal ( although not yet depleted ) will become depleted if we expand their use at the current rate of increase in consumption.

So Extra Terrestrial Intelligence , space with its opportunity , and knowledge of " greater than current human , thought, behaviour and activity should all be high on the priority list for ' things to consider deeply' . After thousands of years of civilisation , and human thought , we have not even managed to sort out " what is beyond Earth and Mankind !

We are still hacking each other to death ( one way or another ) , and we can't seem to agree our origin , or who / if anyone is in charge of the Earth and the Universe.

So maybe my :-

Hierachy of ' Fish , Mankind, Spiritualkind , and God ' is not such a bad solution for sorting the world out ?

Mike

The evidence for a GOD is incomplete, ambiguous and insufficient (hence the need for faith).

 

 

 

The evidence for angels is practically non-existent, without abandoning all critical thinking.

 

 

 

While I shall readily agree with you that humans exist you have still failed to offer anything other than opinion an anecdote to justify their alleged position above all other known life forms. Do you intend to continue to ignore this central weakness of your argument?

 

 

 

See previous point.

 

No. If I concede, temporarily, that all these four levels exist it does not mean we can necessarily interact with them. You pulled that one out of a vacuum.

 

 

Several minor, technical points here.

 

Are you unsure about it being a whale? If not, why the question mark?

 

While technically the museum you refer to is (or was at one time) the British Museum of Natural History, it has been known for some time simply as the Natural History Muesum. The British Museum is located on the other side of town and has now whales, unless there are carvings of them in the Elgin Marbles.

 

The whale has long been on display in the museum. It was certainly there when I visited a few decades ago. The museum is simply relocating it to pride of place in the central hall.

 

And, less technically, so what? I don't catch how this is relevant to your argument.

 

 

His story was not intended to be predictive. Nor were his thoughts on the possibility of life on Europa original. I just fail to see where you are trying to go with this.

 

 

 

I don't think so.

Natural History Museum .link . .

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/incredible-blue-whale-skeleton-unveiled-at-natural-history-museum-a3586711.html

If God is EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE . namely the whole Universe from the Big Bang till now , from the middle of the stars , galaxies , black holes , dark matter , dark energy to every minute atom or sub atomic particle , then that is not " incomplete, ambiguous and insufficient " if all this "STUFF " does not belong to GOD , Who does it belong to ? Or Who or what is responsible for its origination ( it cannot just come out of Nothing , that is even more absurd than saying it has an Origination .

Your comment "

" The evidence for angels is practically non-existent, without abandoning all critical thinking."

The book I quoted ( of which there are many books , including the Bible , give clear cut discussion of contact with Angels . I am afraid we need to get out of our mind , children's books images . Quite often they were not recognised as being non human until after the event ! The book describes people being grabbed from behind , from stepping out into the road , pulled backwards , away from ' the next moment ' a heavy Lorry swishing by. On turning around to thank the person saving their life ' there was nobody there ' many , many examples of this can be given .

Your comment "

While I shall readily agree with you that humans exist you have still failed to offer anything other than opinion an anecdote to justify their alleged position above all other known life forms. Do you intend to continue to ignore this central weakness of your argument?"

The thrust of this thread is to endorse the central idea that " HUMANS " are significant to us because we are humans and not minute bacteria , which no doubt have their role and some form of life , but , my main argument it that of how we fit in , where we fit in , and how important are we to the ' main show ' , if that does not put too flippant a point on it !

I personally think we are very significant , in the whole ' scheme of things ' , both as receivers and givers , certainly as far as the earth is concerned . I think we are allocated to this domain , what happens else where , we may one day maybe find out and ' possibly take part in ' . However I would say there is EVIDENCE for contact and experience with all four of the HIERARCHY SECTIONS that I specified

( GOD, ANGELS, HUMANS, FISH ) to varying degrees with each . However it does interestingly follow the same pattern with each . Namely , the higher Heirachy appears to have more concern for the next lower in the Heirachy. At each and all stages . And upwards less concern for the Heirarchies upward . Eg we all beleive and are concerned for our fish , but less concerned generally for God and Angels ! Such is the nature of these Heirachy. 's

Concerning your comment about Arthur C Clark and his stories and inferred predictions . Like Isaac Assimov , their predictive stories were very plausible , because they usually had a scientific yet imaginative link . Hense my comment about prediction . Many of Clarks Ideas are central to current science , though others are not ( so far ) . His reasoning on the Sea being the early origin of life forms seems to ring certain bells from many directions . And the great sea whale recently being given pride of place in the Natural History Museum , seems both , coincidental to my argument as well as redressing and all .

As regards " the human condition " , this surely is the whole content of most literature . We could go on for ever about ' the place humans have in the world ' . However it is very interesting , no wonder there are so many if not all ' books ' about " the human condition " !

Man interacting with God ! , God interacting with man ! Angels interacting from time to time with individuals , Men wrestling with an Angel . Angels bringing ' Glad tidings' , men wrestling with great white sharks , or me gazing at my goldfish , counting them , feeding them , making sure their environment is refreshed and fine !

Look at the gold fish at the top left , it is clearly turning to face me . When I stand there for a while , they all turn , for a while , to face me , acknowledging that I am next up the Hierachy! ( or hungry ) LOL !

Ps I think the zig zag white marks are three recently born gold fish , although they are jet black . They are hardly perceptible .

Mike

.

Well I must say , . Your post quoted above , made for an interesting and enjoyable read !

It's nice to be given the freedom by you To discuss things I would not dream of discussing , with many other people .

If there are " highly intelligent creatures " around ,or contactable by us , from the next up in the Heirachy that I have proposed then , that must be the most enjoyable experience , one could have in your entire life !

That is why my very First attempt to forge this link ( back in the 1990's, was from the middle of the moor , miles away from anyone and any place , and looking up in the sky , shouted out " IS THERE ANYBODY THERE , " ....... from which the whole ball started to role for my supposed contact with the next layer of intelligence . ( Either that or someone is playing the most extra-ordinary game with me over half of my life. ).

Ps as a side issue yet related in some way :-

A few years ago , I was rummaging in a new and second hand book shop in Illminster, Devon . Like something out of a movie . An Old Timer , fairly well spoken , raised his head above the inevitable pile of new and second hand books. I must have asked for some subject or other , can't remember . But I ended up buying this book , that I have since displaced or lost . ( Book called "Are there such things as Angels ? ") . Needless to say , our home and Cafe and house in Italy , are immersed in Books . This is the tip of the icebergs , . Times this ( X 5 ) by those books scattered by ones sent to charity shops etc .

Back to the Book : it was written by someone doing their PHD In theology . She chose to do this research , not believing YES/NO Either way herself . She advertised on Radio , and many other ways to source for information . I read the book and was staggered, absolutely staggered, how many people responded to her advertisement , with a complete range and numbers upon numbers of different , experience of some form or another , mainly ( if not all) invisible , yet interactive contact .

Pps . You keep asking me to define this next layer of Hierarchy , or Hierarchy at any level , which I find difficult to know or explain . Other than the answer itself is no doubt very informative . I suspect that there is a threshold that gets crossed between my fish and I , which is not dissimilar to the threshold that exists in LEDS and Lazars. , namely once struck the devise ' Lazes' until a certain lower threshold is fallen toward and the Lazzing collapses . I am not sure what happens at the upper threshold ( which there probably is not one ( other than the lazer burns out . If this is a good analogy then the struck lazer is at a set fixed level , increased amplitude only increases expance of light not level of radiation ( say frequency , which is why LEDs and lasers are of a fixed frequency ) . If this IS so for advanced life then the Hierarchy may NOT EXTEND much higher BUT spread out across the whole universe/cosmos as a size rather than Level .

Mike

If what I have said in this last entry , is in any near way correct ( which I acknowledge is not necessary the case ) however here goes on an attempt at the......

.

................... HIERARCHY OF HUMAN LIFE ...................

1. Then the very top must be GOD ( which is by most people's definition ' the Almighty, Everywhere, Everything ,

....................Taking a bit of beating , to go any higher . )

2. Angels ( including Arc angels )

3. Humans ( or Human like )

4. Fish ( and others)

...................................~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.............................

THIS MEANS , we can interact with any of these four levels of the HIERARCHY

( al be it ) that some levels may be through inter mediators

....................................................................................................

It's interesting that the British Museum , is just arranging the largest Known living entity in the world to be on display in the Museum

Namely a Massive , massive , whale ?

It is no supprised then , that one of the greatest ever science fiction writers in the world (Arthur .C. Clark ) { great Wireless Scientist of the 1940'/50 s , renown for his forsight on future inventions in both mechanical, electrical , atomic and space science . renown Science Fiction Stories}

In his predictive SF Story 2001/10/ etc a Space Odessy .

He predicted mankind finding life on Europa ( the water and ice world one of Jupiters moons )

His prediction was of giant intelligent whales / fish inhabiting the seas of EUROPA . As well as Jupiter itself turning into a small local Sun . All-be-it a story , his insight has many times proved to be correct .

So may be in a small way this enhances my suggestion of the Human interface Hierarchy suggested above .

Mike

]

This photograph , taken a a moment ago , follows some of the Art rules as posited by artists of yesteryear.

But they are not without science .

Notice the horizon line on the golden section . . Also the vertical golden section crosses the horizon line just under the tree , which is the site of my current scientific observation . Namely that the passing trains (express. London to Plymouth ) pass at speed at this point and are just visible . This produces unexpected results as to our focal point and how our eyes at that , focal point .

Namely we appear to get two different styles of focus , depending whether we see the front of the train or the carriages .

Now that is science in the making . ( with ART ) as per previous posts in this thread about passing trains

Namely post # 238 .

Mike

To me you are assigning meaning where none really exists. As I said before you could roll dice and get the same results but in a much more complex way.

 

Not to mention this "divining" being a really arbitrary thing. I have some experience with this. I was raised to think I was a water witch, I used to forked willow branch to find water many times. I've never been really sure since adulthood how that really worked. I think that finding water is much easier than people think and most of the time when you drill down in certain areas you will find water. Having said that on at least two occasions I found water after the driller had bored several dry holes. It had to be coincidence but at the time it was an enormous feeling of power.

 

I'll quote AronRa and say, "if you can't show it you don't know it" ...

 

The whole idea of hierarchy is really tough to wrap my mind around. You say this:

 

 

 

And yet you have no working definition of how you equate intelligence. Technology? A flawed yardstick for sure IMHO. Brain size? We have to go back to a sperm whale having a complex brain as big as a bushel basket. And elephants having a brain bigger than a basketball and elephants display complex behaviors we can identify with. Angels? This smells very strongly of the supernatural something you have to show the existence of before you can go there. As I have said before technology doesn't immediately bring you superbeing status and things like the speed of light limit your ability to communicate over distances.

 

I am trying Mike but I just can't quite reach you on this...

 

Well I must say , . Your post quoted above , made for an interesting and enjoyable read !

It's nice to be given the freedom by you To discuss things I would not dream of discussing , with many other people .

If there are " highly intelligent creatures " around ,or contactable by us , from the next up in the Heirachy that I have proposed then , that must be the most enjoyable experience , one could have in your entire life !

That is why my very First attempt to forge this link ( back in the 1990's, was from the middle of the moor , miles away from anyone and any place , and looking up in the sky , shouted out " IS THERE ANYBODY THERE , " ....... from which the whole ball started to role for my supposed contact with the next layer of intelligence . ( Either that or someone is playing the most extra-ordinary game with me over half of my life. ).

Ps as a side issue yet related in some way :-

A few years ago , I was rummaging in a new and second hand book shop in Illminster, Devon . Like something out of a movie . An Old Timer , fairly well spoken , raised his head above the inevitable pile of new and second hand books. I must have asked for some subject or other , can't remember . But I ended up buying this book , that I have since displaced or lost . ( Book called "Are there such things as Angels ? ") . Needless to say , our home and Cafe and house in Italy , are immersed in Books . This is the tip of the icebergs , . Times this ( X 5 ) by those books scattered by ones sent to charity shops etc .

Back to the Book : it was written by someone doing their PHD In theology . She chose to do this research , not believing YES/NO Either way herself . She advertised on Radio , and many other ways to source for information . I read the book and was staggered, absolutely staggered, how many people responded to her advertisement , with a complete range and numbers upon numbers of different , experience of some form or another , mainly ( if not all) invisible , yet interactive contact .

Pps . You keep asking me to define this next layer of Hierarchy , or Hierarchy at any level , which I find difficult to know or explain . Other than the answer itself is no doubt very informative . I suspect that there is a threshold that gets crossed between my fish and I , which is not dissimilar to the threshold that exists in LEDS and Lazars. , namely once struck the devise ' Lazes' until a certain lower threshold is fallen toward and the Lazzing collapses . I am not sure what happens at the upper threshold ( which there probably is not one ( other than the lazer burns out . If this is a good analogy then the struck lazer is at a set fixed level , increased amplitude only increases expance of light not level of radiation ( say frequency , which is why LEDs and lasers are of a fixed frequency ) . If this IS so for advanced life then the Hierarchy may NOT EXTEND much higher BUT spread out across the whole universe/cosmos as a size rather than Level .

Mike

Just pointing out that the process you described is known as divination. It -divination- has been lauded and decried for as long as lauding and decrying have been around. In any case, divination is not scientific and so hardly admissible as evidence in a presumably scientific discussion. (And per my quote, not admissible in a Christian discussion either.) Good luck, keep that thumb up, and if you get a ride may it not be with a psychopath.

Yes I can see what you are getting at . But I have just read Wikipedia definition and a few other descriptions .

Divination is mainly the looking for signs like shape of tea leaves patterns . And or carrying out some form of ritual .

My suggestion was just asking a question , outright, and asking for the answer ( little more tricky ). But the protocol or language was just tri. Three symbols .. Left right or centre.

I could be signalling a traffic controller down the road ( with lights suddenly stop working ) this signal means this . That signal means that . I am not asking anybody to cut the tail off a cat and use it in a dance.

I think I am quite safe , I am only asking some advanced life , one step up on humans to , signal some simple answers , 1) right 2) wrong , 3) in between . Why should we not talk to , the next higher species up from humans

I do not think it was considered wrong to attempt to speak to an angel . There are several accounts of contact with and speaking to Angels . I think someone wrestled with one. And the Apostle John imprisoned on the isle of Patmos saw several Angels and was told not to bow to them as they were just fellow .. Something or others ..

However it does not do wrong to warn against out and out ritualistic , looking at animals entrails and tea leaves . Dancing about like a whirling Derbeshire !

All I want is to have some simple communication with the next most intelligent creature up the intelligent Hierarchy so I can ask some technical questions about the cosmos and the structure of life within it.

I am not asking a lot . I think we are even admonished to persevere with giving the guy at the top a call from time to time .

We'll blow me down with a feather , we have gone the whole HIERARCHY from the Top , down in steps all the way to the fishes.

Mike