Mike Smith Cosmos

Sure . But I would ask you to let me sleep on it , as I have had a rather heavy day , and I am ' bushed ' at this moment . 

But , I will get back on the case , shortly ! 

Mike 

16 hours ago, Area54 said:

Whoa there!. Certainly there are Hierarchies of various kinds within the universe at large and life in particular. My objection to Mike is that he has failed utterly to justify the kind of hierarchy he claims exists, or to counter evidence that calls it into serious question. Strange appears to be rejecting the same specific hierarchy of Mike that Moontanman, myself and probably others have questioned in this thread.

That hierarchy has two essential components. Man is above all other terrestrial life forms and their are others entities above man. Mike has failed to offer a cogent argument for the first (though one could be made) and failed to provide evidence for the latter (perhaps because nothing substantial exists).

Further, your suggestion that the concept dates from the 1980s is simply wrong. The Great Chain of Being, the prototypical hierarchy, derived from the writings of Plato and Aristotle was fully established in the Middle Ages. It was probably, in part, responsible for the development, by Linnaeus, of the biological classification system, which is inherently hierarchical. One could select more examples from the past couple of centuries. I'll throw in one more. Nikolaas Tinbergen's work in the 50s and 60s, wherein he helped develop ethology, was essentially a recognition and investigation of biological hierarchies.

 Well ,I must say , you appear very learned in the subject as it stands today . I cannot compete on mainstream knowledge of the areas you cover . 

However , I feel I have something to offer , on the area you seem very sensitive about , namely the presence of a superior set of beings ,  to man ! 

I would take as my source threefold  things .

1. In any documentry comments about ' life bearing ' creation , that are to hand .  

2 . Any extrapolated reasoning on today's technology , that could prove beneficial now in this 21 st century , toward a possible current insight into " how a set of high brow engineers/ scientists ,/experienced beings " could possibly go about seeding a world. As we have today .

3. Any imaginative ideas. Which could support the proposal for the origin and structure of life (living things ) on Earth . 

As an introductory mention of these three aspects 

1. In any documentry comments about ' life bearing ' creation , that are to hand , it speaks about " Let us create man in our image . " Several things there :  'US  ' clearly referring to a numberless set of designers, experimenters , constructors , who are not unlike us in some way . Which is heartening .

2. By our experience to date a set of well equipped laboratories or the equivalent would be required. Also our experience with transplants and the like shows a requirement to the living being , kept alive, but unconscious , while final touches or constructional surgery take place . 

3. If you imagine this going on for both the animal , fish , flying creature population , the facility would be quite vast. 

2 hours ago, Manticore said:

We know very little so far about the vast majority of planets we have detected.

Here is another view of part of Earth (this one not photoshopped).

 

YES  ,     but this is what it's really like out there . I used to live near the Lake District north west England . On some of the non tourist lakes , they were not dissimilar from this picture. Also in Scotland . 

I agree the salt flats look a bit barren . But my point is :- God ( whatever God is , which I imagine it being Massive ( if not spread throughout the Universe,)  with capability beyond imagination , power unlimited , scientific engineering skills and capability to make a CERN engineer weep , design mentality capablility to make a first year Art Student turn from Art to 'bee keeping ' . Power to make today's ' dragsters get jealous , yet human sensitivities to make poets and philanthropists cry. ( Forgetting for the moment the poor artists that have to imitate this scenery , ) or philosophers trying to get to grips with this lot . 

Why should not an entity so large yet benign exist , to oversee the greatest Civil Engineering Project , Ever even dreamt about . 

We are indeed privileged to even consider such an Entity Existing at all. 

Mike 

Jk

7 hours ago, DrP said:

 

.

.            I think the case rests ..  ! 

   We clearly believe , what we want to believe !

I accept the analytical aspect of science as it changes as it moves forward . But I also believe there are much higher beings in the HIERACHY  above mankind .  I can't really help what appeals to me as the truth ! 

.       .        .       .  mike  .      .      . 

4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 No, in fact humans designed goldfish.. 

Quite so . That was a rather impulsive remark for me to have made . 

What I should have said is , that , in the great scheme of things , however God decided to develop water navigating creatures to swarm and occupy the seas and rivers of Earth. I imagine he developed the principle of underwater fish as swimming creatures much in the shape principle we have today , namely a streamlined head, a thrusting tail , fins to guide and a muscular body to provide thrust . Starting with a few basic types , he no doubt used the principle of natural selection to refine the designs in their various habitats ,during the design stage , .  However , I wasn't there but there are fossil records which do show the basic types and their development . 

So yes it was stupid of me to suggest God made goldfish , as they are. As you say , man has no doubt bred some fish to look nice and red, gold , and small for ornament . I think if 'one thinks' of God in this capacity with fish , as a massive laboratory of breeding and selection assistants . Which is probably wrong , but I for one need a sort of visualisation to get my head around it . Then repeat that for all the different animal and fish types , then set them breeding . Well , it's just an Image , to go on .  ( it's better than 'turtles all the way down ' as Prof Steven Hawkins , was once  told from the audience , at one of his lectures. ) .

And so with all the other creatures until you come to Man . And we all have the gist for that description . Certainly , the Mesopotamian evidence is all there for Mankind to make its debut in the region that is recently being torn to shreds! 

Mike 

ps . All because I accidentally said God made goldfish ! 

What a blunder ! 

12 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

No, in fact those things are evidence of reality, none require a god, all are explained by natural processes... 

Cars do not self organise, cars do not metabolize, cars do not reproduce, cars are demonstrably the creation of humans designed by humans. The only way to tell if an object is designed is to compare it to an undesigned object ie a rock, dirt, sand, or the moon. 

Yes! But that is exactly my point . Cars are designed by Man .

In a special way ,( not waving a magic wand )  :-

Gold fish are a design process of / from a GOD .  ..... QED. 

1 hour ago, Area54 said:

Bollocks. Complete and utter nonsense. Bilge. Profound and deeply offensive ignorance.

 

Anatomy can define the detailed structure of your fish and their component organs and systems.

Zoology can detail the function of each of these organs and systems.

Embryology can review the development of these organs and systems from a zygote to an adult fish.

Neurology can provide information on the nature of their nervous system.

Evolutionary biology can trace their lineage back a billion years.

Ethology can describe and explain their behaviour.

Cytology can explain the workings of individual cells.

Biochemistry can detail their metabolism.

Genetics can illuminate how all of these are controlled.

Ecology can describe how they fit into and influence their environment.

 

In short Mike, science knows a great deal more about your fish than you will ever know, as long as you choose fairy stories over sound, multiply validated observations and their resultant hypotheses and theories.

 

 

Yes , I rather feared that you would reply in that sort of analytical way . And I must say as I was typing my comments , I did reason to myself , that individual analysis of the various functions , can indeed be listed in the way you describe . 

But if you did do such a listing , surely ,( please don't hit me over the head ) .

BUT it's still not , an entity  A GOLD FISH SWIMMING AROUND IN MY POOL , Surely . 

Its Like coming across a list of the contents of the various parts of a Rolls Royse Car and a pile of steel , aluminium , copper and brass and saying there is the ingredients of a car , what more do you want ?  Oh and here is a guide how to build it. It's still a pile of ingredients , not a swish RR ready to drive away . 

One is a pile of bits . The other is LIFE . 

IF you will excuse my rather crude similarity . It is not meant in an offensive way , but as a genuine conversation about the wonder of LIFE  compared to the material contents and the mechanism of living things. 

Ps . Having read through that list of disciplines in the form of various ' OLOGY's in order to UNDERSTAND  and build a living Gold Fish . 

If you could master ALL  those OLOGY's all at once or in a sequence even , you would be a God .       QED 

Mike 

3 hours ago, Area54 said:

 

You assert that the universe is "full to bursting with cause and effect".

The universe is large, possibly infinite. Agreed.

It is arguably complicated, though I could write a term paper that argued it is immensely simple, governed by four fundamental forces, a smattering of fundamental particles .......

One of the philosophers like Decart or Lock, or another posited , that " if the universe was totally predictable , it would not work ! "

It needs the freedom of movement , variability  , chance , .

True there are laws bound up in particles , fields , and all manner of scientific principles , that modern science has uncovered. Yet use them to describe , these fish of mine moving about , current science , would be hard pressed to put this picture of swimming fish , in any meaningful way . Use science to show that they are alive, thinking , deciding, eating , observing , concluding , I think it would struggle. 

Move on the human EXISTANCE , sentience, awareness, appreciation, consciousness, and science would struggle to use its current systems to handle ,

Life , EXISTANCE, consciousness, awareness , appreciation, affection  and a pelethera of other living experiences. 

It is this latter experience , that is explained outside of science as we know it ! And yet that is the area of discussion proposed here , in this thread . 

You might be tempted to say , " well why debate it here in a Science Forum " 

My answer would be " because science NEEDS it in order to make major inroads into human understanding and the future of humanity. 

Mike 

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Prove god and we'll talk about god, simply asserting it is meaningless. As the late great Christopher Hitchens said "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence...."   

Perhaps one of an immediate proofs is the first line of your SINATURE STRIP .

namely . :- 

.        " LIFE IS THE POETRY OF THE UNIVERSE " . .

If the Universe was all just matter , dust , and  rock , , we might be struggling to say there is a God . Like going to some of the moons and planets , just minerals , rocks , dust , no atmosphere. .. 

But under our noses is LIFE , PLANTS , ANIMALS ,   Here on Earth its crawling with Life ...

Surely that is proof of a GOD .?

 At least enough for your comment  "  Prove god and we'll talk about god " 

mike 

1 hour ago, Klaynos said:

You're right. It's not wise to call your idea unsubstantiated. It's wise to call it completely and utterly unsubstantiated. 9 pages of circles and no evidence. My first post on the first page still stands. 

Yes , but , it's bound to be like that . 

You can't expect to pick up , from under a rock , a two ton octopus looking thing , and plonk it on the table , and say , there you go , I just caught God , under a rock , here he is , let's ask a few questions !

the best you are going to get is descriptions found in sacred text, written or spoken . By someone much higher up the HIERACHY  , than any of us , I would think . What is more likely is knowledge passed down over the century's, that purports to shed some light on this missing bit of the HIERACHY , between man and God . 

Thats why I have been consecrating on the me-human  to goldfish relationship , as that I would have thought demonstrates on a much reduced scale , the interaction between God and Man . 

Thats what I have been saying about , I  clearly caring much more and in detail for my Goldfish than they care for me . 

Clearly that is repeated on a much higher part of the ( God - Human ) HIERACHY 

 Most people are giving little care for God , but clearly God is giving far greater care for us . ( or we would all be dead by now ) . That is just one minutia of the story , but it should give a lead in to far more issues. 

Mike 

5 hours ago, Area54 said:

Alterntaively you can reject your unsubstantiated concept of hierarchy, a product - it seems - of wishful thinking, and instead embrace a universe where the warmth and the heart are provided by humans and such other intelligent entities as may exist.

I am not sure it is wise to catagorise my comments of possible conditions in the strata of " above human life forms " , as UNSUBSTANTIATED. That would be unnessisarily dismissive of things unseen and not of the normal run of things. And then replace them with ' normal and more familiar conditions ' purely because they are easier to prove! 

True , credibility needs to come from a more ' roundabout ' route, but I believe that is worth the trouble . 

Point 1. Being . The universe is full to bursting with Cause and Effect . Eg One thing causes another thing to happen. So obvious. 

Yet , here we have a vast, complicated , energetic., productive universe. Yet we as humans have been responsible for so, so little of it. Yet here we are asking " Where has all this come about , and what actually produced it . My explanation is 

A designer, manufacturer/ manufacturing system beyond anything we can barely comprehend ( just perhaps ). Yet we can't imagine the detail, or system easily . 

That is just one example of my " a more ' roundabout ' route " 

mike 

What has come out of this topic of HIERACHY  for me , is quite extraordinary . 

Firstly God exists at the top of this HIERACHY , it appears to originate from the Bottom up. Namely by combining the latest theory for the origin of the Material Universe, we are put in the position , if God were to originate the universe , relative to our size , it was very, very small. The size of a Higgs particle , some millions upon millions smaller than an atom . And that is all there was . By inflation it grew , and I presume GOD GREW WITHIT , ( keeping abreast of the universe he was creating ) . At an inflationary way , it grew , to a bit smaller than a marble. This then continued to grow , under the auspices of God , to the Universe we are aware of today. So now God is universe wide in size with a thinking system to match . 

His ,first  advanced life to create ( we are told ) , were Sons of God ( a number ) but not specified, ( they got up to mischief before the flood ) then followed the creation of Angels , ( some 100, 000,000 ) . Along side all this the material universe was developing , I suppose in much the way science has documented it . Then , maybe the first Man was made "in our image " ( presumably in some way ' like  the angles and sons of God. ) . All this latter human life after the development of animals including ' Fish...

So in an outline form we can see the Human HIERACHY develops across the Universe . That is of course , if you wish to include  all I have said here . If not you are left with this picture of a rather cold heartless universe . 

Mike 

On 16 August 2017 at 10:03 PM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

Your comment :-

" But none of these things suggest a hierarchy.    "

i will cover this , next post ! 

When I first mentioned HIERACHY in this thread , I was thinking only in terms of the relationship I had with my Goldfish . I was not strictly thinking in terms of a Religious  HIERACHY .. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy  

I have since looked up the Dictionary definition and it has often been used in a religious connection .  I was hoping to glean some interesting information about our Human standing in the greater scheme of things , but was trying to gain that from a MIDDLE UP approach . Namely let's start with this HUMAN -FISH relationship and see what happens as we go up . 

For whatever reason this seems to have got onto a religious tack . Probably my fault for mentioning ANGELS. 

{ PERHAPS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE 100 MILLION  of them out there somewhere , and a GOD , and some SONS of God, makes for an interesting investigation into   HIERACHY  }. 

As explained previously I personally do not have a division between religious and non religious ( sectarian ) , everything to me is all from top to bottom one great Universe . Whatever is there is there , from top to bottom there is nothing we can do about that , it is what it is , and that is that . 

True , I was hoping to glean some feeling of understanding , as to what happens as we go up , and I was hoping , what was going on between me and the fish , might just give me that insite. It's now got into War , which is all we need just at this moment . However press on ! 

I have suffered death ( of a fish ) in the midst of all this talk, which I am only just getting over . Today Barcelona is trying to get over , many many deaths . 

" Who rules who " ?  seems to be the issue . Perhaps this is the lot of the Universe ? 

Maybe there is a way to rule without war ? I rule my fish , and I am not at war with them .

It's ' MAN  ruling MAN ' ..... that causes the problem . 

We need to find a way to unscramble that bit of the HIERACHY SOMEHOW. . ? 

Peacefully ?  PERHAPS  we should all study our goldfish environment MORE !

Then Peacefully , look for the model human upward ? See if we can get any sense out of that ? 

You see I think our bad history in this matter is clouding the solution . If we can only see through all this past JUNK , maybe we can see a way forward ? 

Mike 

5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 

 

BTW, tell me more about the fallout shelters, it would seem we are going to need one in not too distant future... 

Well this bit about fall out shelters and electricity for them goes , back to the 1970's / 1980's .........

having come through, the Cuba missile crisis , people were still on edge . Kennedy had been shot , many people across the world still feared things could flare up, and if that happened , " all hell would break loose and we would be drawn relentlessly into a nuclear holocaust " not dissimilar to people's fears today with nuclear threats. I think our thoughts then were more unrestrained . ( doomsday scenario ) . Rich people around the world started to build ' fall out shelters ' I was approached by a local company who supplied survival equipment world wide to come up with a product for fall out shelters. 

When the bomb goes up the electric goes off . In a buried fall out shelter , that would plunge you into absolute darkness. Could I design and build a pedal charger . Which I did , and a number were sent around the world . The panic went off and life went on . People still thought a catastrophe was still possible but not to worry , let's just live on . 

I did my sums and realised , even if there was a haulocaust, most people would survive the blast, immediate fireball , and a few other bits . The problem comes when the fall out continues to rain down . BUT if you can keep inside with cleaned air for a month , you would survive . So I designed a small ' in your house ' geodesic dome ' composed of a number of marine ply triangles ( geodesic in dimensions , ) that could be pulled out from under the stairs in the event of a bomb . You would have time to assemble it , as it's the fallout that rains down  is the killer ( unless you are in the city zone , then you have had it anyway ) . Survive with filtered air for about a month . You should be alright . 

If I can find them I can dig out some pictures . 

That all went dead and quiet for about 30 years , until a few days ago ! 

Mike 

Ps.

Your comment :-

" But none of these things suggest a hierarchy.    "

i will cover this , next post ! 

On 15 August 2017 at 0:30 AM, Moontanman said:

Think for a moment Mike, science admits there things it cannot at this time answer. Religion claims to have the answer to everything while knowing nothing. 

No one says that God and the angels of God cannot be alien super scientists. Science simply says at this time there is no evidence to support that assertion. 

Religion and the supernatural have never contributed any knowledge of the unknown to mankind.  Religion and the supernatural have never found cure for a disease, in fact they have never even suggested a disease had any causes except demons. 

Religion and the supernatural have never made it possible for one man to feed many through agriculture, animal husbandry, fishing or any other means.  

Religion and the supernatural have never provided clean water or sanitation. In fact it can be said that religion has done the opposite. 

 Religion and the supernatural have never provided a reason not to go to war and kill your neighbor, in fact most if not all religions have indeed contributed to war and allied themselves with fascists.

 Religion and the supernatural have never provided us with, tools or the methodology to use  those tools to build houses, boats, cities, or to smelt metals.

In fact our entire civilization in based in science and the scientific method. Take away science and the fruits it has provided and people start to die immediately. millions within days, billions with in months. Take away religion? Nothing would happen other than humans might want to stop teaching religion as science... 

Hi Moontainman, 

I notice a slight air of Anti Religion feelings, in your last post . Which I can understand . I grew up in the 40's, 50's, and 60's where there was this great awakening to things that seemed to have gone terribly wrong, particularly in the turn of the First World War and then into the Second World War.  Religion in the main did not seem to advise people in a peaceful direction. 

Along came people like Bob Dylan and many others , with

" come senitors and congress men , mothers and fathers ,throughout the land " " don't criticise what you don't understand " ......stand aside ...  " the times they are a changing " 

I was well and truely swept along with all this , my parents were really alarmed. A career I had started in missile engineering , I gave up , and college. Many others , thousands , upon thousands became drop outs, streakers, hippies, and the like . The times definitely did change. Before I went to London and University, when  I was 19 years old the Town of Totnes in Devon , was an ordinary Devon Town . Now 55 years later , today it sells every sort of New Age potion, crystals , books on herbal remedies and momentos for the great age of alternatives. Girls strum Guitars in the streets , flowers are sprinkled , they even roll Pancakes down the High Street every Tuesday . It's amazing . 

Having given up electronics university and  Missiles electronics testing  , In midlife  my 40's/ 50's ( late 1970'sI re-established my career in the nuclear fallout shelter business , then into manufacture of computer interconnection , which led to the Internet. I went back to University ( Years 2000 .) ,did an electronics Degree in Sattelite communication , then went teaching science . 

Now , retired , I try to think about all this , occasionally think big thoughts , and paint all manner of things on canvas . 

I simpathise with your comment about religious involvement in wartime , I just live in hope there will be a time of Peace sometime on Earth , that we can ALL be proud of . I now ,do think this will be by intervention somehow from the HIERACHY above the Human level . As mankind can't seem to 'crack it ' , on his own ! 

Mike 

2 hours ago, Area54 said:

 

Mike, you said you had been plastered by -1s. I went through the entire thread and found only 2, for a couple of your most recent posts. Two downvotes is not equivalent to being plastered by them. I felt a momentary urge to give you a -1 for being deceitful, but immediately suppressed it, since I think you were just being imprecise. I admire your consistency in that regard. The -1s are not there anymore. Now can we please get on with it. I do make four requests.

1. Please try to genuinely respond to questions asked or arguments made by other participants. That means really reading what they have said and not shooting from the hip, or reading from your agenda.

2. Stop repeating the same tired old arguments in the same disjointed way.

3. Focus.

4. If there is something you could do about your abominable spelling/typing it would be appreciated.

I appreciate all that you have said . thank you . 

I will rejoin the discussion . 

There is a problem with the subject of this discussion as:- 

Many of the things that have taken place in the universe, or supposedly have taken place , in the past , to do with the current World we see about us . And how it got to where we are now ! Have a problem . :-

As neither , science is fully able to explain how everything got here , nor is the explanation which incorporates creatures of various sorts including a God , satisfactory to many people and many scientists particularly , as it attempts to bypass the rules of science , like prediction, evidence , formulae , maths etc . 

So I acknowledge the problem for both camps .

A) Those that are ardent scientists almost abandon the opposite camp , in a sweeping ,   " well there is no evidence, no prediction , no science .... Phhaa!  Waste of space ! " 

B) Those that come from a ( believing in the supernatural God, Angels etc , Creation ) for some reason of upbringing, experience, need whatever . Say to themselves ,  " heathens, heartless, poor sods they have nothing to look forward to when they die , anyway miracles are possible with our God , that scientists have no recourse to anything a bit beyond understanding or supernatural . " 

So it's easy to see the difficulty. However someone like me has a foot in both camps . Being utterly intreagued with both sides :-

A)   Science and  B) God ( with others ) 

For some reason or other I am able to handle them both together . 

To me most of pedestrian science is a tool used by both sides . It's where there is a conflict I choose the God side ( maybe I am hedging my bets , but it's not for that reason . ) 

Why cannot GOD. And the SONS of GOD  , and ANGELS of GOD  not be SUPER SCIENTISTS  with an advanced understanding that we just do not understand or even know about ? 

MIKE 

Well someone is stopping me debating in a Lounge environment ( by plastering me with ( -1) s. So I will have to stop , which is a shame as my points have been hard won over the years . And I enjoy the debate ! 

So unless whoever is determined to shut me up by using (-1) s as a means of winning an argument  STOPS and returns with ( +1's) . I have no further recourse but to finish the discussion . Why cannot people win by discussion rather than by destruction . ( particularly in a Lounge environment ) 

Of course that is why the world has got into its present state . ( kick ass ) , rather than have an intellectual debate , and enjoy the cut and thrust of words and argument . 

Thanks for the discussion so far . , 

mike 

41 minutes ago, Area54 said:

Which is a very honest statement of your ignorance. That is surely not something to be ashamed of. Nor is it something on which to base a worldview.

O.k. I appreciate your gentleness , in this instance . 

I D'ont get it though. 

Egyptian history and archeology is one of the strongest reputation and output in digging and archeology . YET  , it is really all well buried in sand . Only the pyramids stand above the blown sand . AND YET , this civilised archeology ONLY goes back 1000's of years , not HUNDREDS of thousands of years. 

Surely , if the Chinese were a civilisation 250,000 years ago , by now the whole world would be of Chinese decent , not middle eastern . 

There is a lot of attempts to bring the odd single artefact to the forefront , and say 

" there you go , look at this monkey with a straitened back , it must be the start of Civilisation ! ( it probably had a bad accident and fell out of a tree badly and broke its back ) ".

I still say the bulk of our history , came from Mediterranian and middle eastern roots. And I do not think I am alone in this . However , I do stand to be corrected ! 

Mike 

5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Mike, why should you look for knowledge in a book written by bronze age savages? Everything the book asserts that can be tested is wrong. Much of it is plagiarized from earlier mythological books and none of them contain anything not known to modern methodological naturalism. 

From my point of view you have done nothing but slowly sneak the idea of the supernatural and a particular book about the supernatural into the conversation in an obvious attempt to legitimize said book even though the book is a collection of meaningless fairy tales. 

The Bible gives us nothing but a set of so called moral codes that would get you arrested in any 1st world modern country. The Bible gives us nothing that would allow the human condition to improve much less direct us to actions that would improve the human condition. The Bible is full of lies and deception and it's truly sad that an intelligent modern human would even consider it meaningful. 

6,000 years is nothing compared to deep time, if we go by modern thought on this humans have been around for 250,000 years. Are you suggesting that for 244,000 years god looked at human suffering from brutality, disease, natural disasters, other predatory creatures, not to mention his fellow man and then one day decided to give his instructions to the ignorant goat herders of the middle eastern desert instead of some civilized group of humans like the chinese who already had writing and wouldn't have had to pass the stories down in a game of chinese whispers for thousands of years. 

Mike, you need evidence to even begin to assert the concept of god, much less your god, and then you would have to explain why god ignored us for hundreds of thousands of years? 

I am not longer confident you can do any of that... 

The trouble is , I went to the local primary schools and then grammar school, in England . And we were not taught about any Chinese history , so I can not comment from any memory of history of that group. I was however taught the local Mesopotamian history of the Middle East. I can see my history text book now .:-

" FROM  UR to ROME  " , with history of the Mesopotamian Valley. With Cuniform writing being the first writing ( a series of wedge chisel cuts in stone ) . 

The  Chinese history I am no expert on , except the other day I did watch a documentary about the Silk Road and I do not think it was anything like this 240,000 years you speak of . I will try and find out about the Chinese History . 

I am sorry to disappoint you , with my comments. It just to me does all fit together, what with MOSUL , the recent battle ground , not far from UR  in the Middle East , and many of the other Historic sights of that region . ( Iran , Iraq, Seria , Isreal , Arabia ) . 

BUT , what if I am right ? That it did all start off in a civilisation  way , near the Caspian Sea , Mediterranian sea, Messipotanian, Arabian  region  of the World . Many of the artefacts are still there.  As I was taught back in the 1950's ., in school ?  

Mike 

On 12 August 2017 at 0:01 PM, Mike Smith Cosmos said:

The answer is in the 'Issue ' of  what is the structure of the whole thing , from the beginning , and how did that come about .? 

I have a feeling that the region around the time of the first Higgs  particle , it's duplication up to a trillion trillion Higgs particles , in size . Still less than a marble in dimension. Any associated thought-like patterns that might have existed amid this ' timeless ' ball of sub material formation. THEN ( as a precursor thought/plan)

........

 

I am getting a bit over awed, by the numbers in the HIERACHY above humans . I had no idea that  at least 100,000,000 ( 100 million )  ANGELS  are in attendance around the EARTHS immediately future.  

(I was pointed to The Bible REVELATION chap 5 verse 11. ) 

So it would appear the whole of the next HIERACHY UP  contains ONE BEING ( GOD) with a very very complex brain , capable of understanding and initiating the start of matter. ( the UNIVERSE ) 

Once this had expanded to a manageable size , The region of ITS ( GODS) domain was furnished with at least 100,000,000 overseeing beings called Angels ( that later got further divisions , Arc Angels, Sons of God )  . 

So rather than there being " absolutely nothing " constituting , a higher HIERACHY than mankind , there appears to be one ' heck of an overseeing organisation , that would make anything we have here on earth ' look like peanuts ' .

We need to get our act together PDQ, ... METHINKS

ps . We need to remember the Jewish nation became the caretakers of many of the Documents containing information about the early start of history of the human race , as well as its continuence until the Arrival of Jesus Christ, ( one of these Angelic SONS OF God , mentioned above ). And Hence the gathering together of more information , now found in the ' New Testament ' including REVELATION  ( Quoted above about   100,000,000 Angels .)

So we seem to be gathering quite a lot of Historical evidence , for this proposed HIERACHY, that I proposed. 

Rather than a big ' blank ' we seem to have unearthed quite a lot of evidence and character for the Human HIERACHY , integrated in human history across thousands of Years . As originally proposed.

So somehow the HIERACHY has appeared at two levels , as Caretakers in the regions above . And as recipients in the regions below . 

( has echoes of me above out of the water , as caretaker and my fish , below , Fish in the water as recipients of my care  ) ! 

Now if that is not ' EVIDENCE ' , I do not know what is ? 

Well woven into human history over the last 6000 years ! 

Mike 

20 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What does god effect in the real world?

May be the whole '  schaboodle ' is originated, maintained , and altered by God! 

Maybe ? 

Mike 

27 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The thing is, god simply doesn't matter, it's irrelevant to science and religion. 

Well , I am not so sure you are right about that . 

Scientists up through the ages have often dismissed proposals offered in advance that have later come to the for . ( in advance ) . 

Quantum ideas, dark matter , dark energy , complexity ,

 Mandelbrot  sets,  automata, bottom up/ top down , time , 

etc 

mike 

2 hours ago, Strange said:

1. That is not how science works. Your lack of understanding of the way science works may be the reason for your discontent with it.

2. The main reasons gods (or any other form of magic) are excluded from science are (a) a lack of evidence and (b) they are not subject to rational enquiry - after all "god" can be used to answer absolutely any question: 

Q: Why are people good? A: God; 

Q: Why are people evil? A: God

Q: Why is the universe suitable for life? A: God

Q: Why are people killed by natural disaster and disease? A: God

After all, he moves in mysterious ways.

On the other hand, science assumes (it has to assume) that the world acts in predictable and repeatable ways. Luckily, that seems to usually be the case, which is why science works. (And, probably, the reason why the universe exists.) If the universe worked according to the capricious whims of a deity, then science would have a much harder time explaining anything.

Hang on a minute ! That is all a bit of a hasty and sweeping comment about the whole subject,  ( both of science , and of a tentative shot at what ' may ' just be another addition to current science understanding , that has not yet been grasped or even entertained by a large section of the science community ) . Namely , that there is .another , rather large , indeed massive , extra to science , that has a very variable , flexible , unpredictable  aspect to the Universe and its function and origin , that as of yet , in not even being seriously considered or in any way understood . 

POSSIBLY ! 

Even Einstein broached this subject with his (" God does not play dice ") 

Mike 

The answer is in the 'Issue ' of  what is the structure of the whole thing , from the beginning , and how did that come about .? 

I have a feeling that the region around the time of the first Higgs  particle , it's duplication up to a trillion trillion Higgs particles , in size . Still less than a marble in dimension. Any associated thought-like patterns that might have existed amid this ' timeless ' ball of sub material formation. THEN ( as a precursor thought/plan)

  " {{{ The potential for a 'universe to come ' , the ensuing intelligence that this 'brain like entity ' now had at its disposal ?  To imagine and pre- program a HEIRACHY  Ranging from silent matter in the form of elements AT THE LOWEST HIERACHY, to life at a microbe scale , to animals and fish , ( the HIERACHY that I have discussed, to ultimately Humans ( HUMAN HIERACHY with large brains, to millions of universe overseers  HIERACHY of Angels , to an overall GOD . }}} " 

 THEN , AFTER that initial inflationary period . The birth of our universe some 13.5 billion years ago. To spread expanding into, what  to where we find ouselves  today . 

mike