J.C.MacSwell

...and having realized this lack of available evidence (despite believing the validity of the statement) I qualified it to: “XY chromosome athletes account for every male athletics World Record, and every player on every major male Professional Sports team. There are no known exceptions". But note that I didn't say "100% XY chromosomes" Is your "possibly 1 in 100 people" far more common than my "under 1%"? Right. Nor is it a valid reason to accept them either. It certainly does have a lot of momentum behind it though, and that's in part why it's important not to set any bad ones. I think it highlights XY dominance in sport. A cautionary point on any loosely restricted inclusion of XY chromosome athletes in competitive female sports. How about "It seems very likely that XY chromosome athletes account for every male athletics World Record, and every player on every major male Professional Sports team, and not much evidence of concern, or optimism, that that may change anytime soon." INow claimed it was untrue. Since you posted he does seem to have changed it to "extremely unlikely" though provided no evidence to support his thinking. For a 43 year old former non elite male weightlifter forced to meet testosterone targets, she did well just getting there.

You can't claim it's a false inference without evidence the inference is false. You are claiming it's wrong because I can't prove it...that is a false inference.

Mine was that “XY chromosome athletes account for every male athletics World Record, and every player on every major male Professional Sports team” You claimed it was untrue. These are different claims. I'm pretty sure I didn't make the second one, and while I have provided some evidence for inferring that the first is true, you've provided none whatsoever toward the second. ...and I certainly said nothing close to "every male athlete ever was XY".

How does that in any way suggest that those that dominate male sports are not exclusively XY chromosome? Intersex athletes are not a threat to male athletics or professional sports...there is no evidence to suggest they could potentially dominate them...and there is no evidence to suggest they can even be competitive at top levels.

Do you understand the meaning of the word untrue? If I make a statement that is almost certainly true, with no known evidence that it has any exceptions...you can claim it's unproven...but you don't get to claim it's untrue. You need to back up that claim...and you can't. What reason do you have to believe there is even one exception, never mind making such a claim? What scientific evidence even points in that direction?

I haven't proven it as fact. How about I add a qualifier? “XY chromosome athletes account for every male athletics World Record, and every player on every major male Professional Sports team. There are no known exceptions" Now how about you rethink your stance that the statement is untrue, and the implications that it almost certainly is true.

Not a very extraordinary claim if it just takes one example to disprove it...yet you can't find one.

I made the claim I made. It's not an extraordinary one. But here's a start: https://www.mlb.com/news/women-break-barriers-in-baseball-history (note: some current executives, coaches and trainers and some stories of players from minor leagues) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manon_Rhéaume Manon Rhéaume (born February 24, 1972) is a retired Canadian ice hockey goaltender. An Olympic silver medalist, she achieved a number of historic firsts during her career, including becoming the first woman to play in any of the major North American pro-sports leagues.[1] (note: She played in a preseason exhibition game) You made the one you did. Should be an easy one to support if true. But it's not true, so you can't. But rather than waste your time trying to find the exception to prove your claim, since none exists, why not contemplate the implications of my claim being true...since it is. XY chromosome athletes dominate male sports. With no restrictions, they would dominate female sports as well. So what are the restrictions going to be to prevent this, or is it simply okay to allow it to happen? Can you even answer this?

You claim it's not true? Name even 1 exception... Previously you claimed a majority of women's sports organizations were in favour of including transgenders in female sports, with no caveats or restrictions, and you realized you couldn't support it. This time your claim should be fairly easy to support...all it takes is one exception. Name one. ...................................................................................................................................................... For context (and I have no idea why you included the Holmes quote) Bolding emphasis by me: To which I answered (now adding the bolding): I had been using the terms biologically male and biologically female, as opposed to simply male or female where either could be confused with gender (when used to mean by identity or choice)

...and pro climate change rears it's ugly head...😜

XY chromosome athletes account for every male athletics World Record, and every player on every major male Professional Sports team. Does your "subject matter" recognize that? Can you expect to integrate XY transgenders into female competitive sports without recognizing that, and without understanding the implications of that? Tell me this. If a transgender female high school athlete breaks 10.49 in the 100m should it be considered a World Record?

All of biology is incomplete. Some of biology is more incomplete than other parts of it. While improving all the time it still seems the binary sex classification system is one of the more useful tools used. How does one defend Evolution from being considered wrong/incomplete without the use of it? For humans, based on standard biology science currently, it is at least 99% accurate, is it not? And while the overlaps may vary from sport to sport, the distributions, and peaks, of athletic potential for those with XX chromosomes fall short of those for XY chromosomes, often markedly and most often very clearly. For elite level competitive female sports the under 1%, the intersex, has long been problematic as to how to classify them and/or how to handicap or exclude them. But this is under 1%, which biology considers intersex. Presumably a similar under 1% in other mammals would also provide classification difficulties for biologists. (yet Biology doesn't consider interviewing any of the 99+ % to help in the classifications) Further to, and mostly separate to that, drugs have been a problem in elite level sports, including deciding on fair use for medical reasons. Despite those problems elite level competitive female sports has come a long way. Despite the problems the presence of intersex athletes presents, and despite the problems of drug use in sports. Now many want to further include some non intersex athletes, potentially any of the biologically male half of the 99+%, to traditionally female only sports, both competitive and recreational. Some even claim this does not threaten female sports often citing the problems of including intersex athletes, as if they are the same thing, or as if they won't add to the problems otherwise already faced. Some claim the problem isn't sufficient to address ("just let them play"). Some believe that scientists or other experts can make it fair, even while arguing the limits of scientists on the subject. If you want to include XY chromosome transgenders in female sports to support their acceptance in society what rules do you propose to use? Testosterone targets well above that of typical female range? Unhealthy targets within typical female range? Something else that you think both transgender and cisgender female competitors will be comfortable with. If you want to include XY chromosome transgenders in female sports how do you define them? Do you simply let them define themselves? What questions do you ask that they ask of themselves? What experience do they fall back on other than their own, and only their own, while none have shared that experience? How do you ask them to differentiate themselves from, say, a gay male with XY chromosomes, with no known biological disadvantage, that also only has his own experience and judgement to fall back on? One more bad analogy...😛... ...Ben...no let's call him Bert Johnson, identifies himself as a "Supermale" and has increased his testosterone levels under doctors orders for the sake of his overall health, both mental and physical or some combination there of. He was already a fast runner, and now runs even faster His Doctor thinks that's great, and like Bert also and wants him to compete at the Olympic level...who is anyone to deny him his place at the track? (his Doctor points out that his testosterone is merely twice normal levels, much less of an advantage than the 3+ times normal levels that current transgenders are allowed over typical females, and Bert retains no other advantages over his male counterparts) Not that anything like that would every happen. (I have to add that as I know someone would be on me about it faster than anyone could say "East German Swimmer", or "why doesn't the Russian flag get played at the Olympics, or their anthem played when Russian athletes win?)

So did Martin Luther King Jr. I preferred his approach.

...and bullied by threats to not speak out... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martina_Navratilova "Navratilova ... rejects accusations of transphobia, and says she deplores "a growing tendency among transgender activists to denounce anyone who argues against them and to label them all as 'transphobes."

That's a wishful narrative. The truth is that many current female athletes are decried if they speak out, and just like the transgender athletes hope that the rules favour them...or at least don't disfavour them.

You are certainly an equal opportunity dehumanizer...😀 ...and +1 on the reduced emotional/ideological baggage

Good point. Not after Covid but after the Covid shutdown/reopening of border. Or should I say planned reopening of the border?😟

I have three of his books. Dreams of a Final Theory and The First Thee Minutes, both mentioned above and which I quite enjoyed. The third I got was way over my head...but I got a good deal on it and couldn't resist it...the buying part...not the reading...😀 RIP Steven Weinberg

Not so "fast"... "The two unions representing more than 8,500 Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) employees announced this morning that the majority of their members have given them a strike mandate." https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cbsa-strike-vote-border-1.6118764 I'm sure it's totally "coincidence", but they've timed their potential strike with both the opening of the borders after Covid and the middle of summer. So don't take it personally if you show up at the border and are given the "Canadian cold" shoulder...(politely compelled to wait in a bit of a border line up)

Before INow accuses Swansont of intentionally or subconsciously attempting to dehumanize transgenders, is it fair to say Swansont was just making an analogy and understood the limitations of it?

Except not only is she not putting sugar on her porridge, she eats nothing for breakfast but cornflakes, and she was born, raised and never left New Zealand. Now make some Venn diagrams, and see if you can figure out the no true polarized American fallacy...

Hard to blame Megan Rapinoe, in the politically polarized US, for talking up one side of this polarization. I can respect that to a degree. She is one of the best women soccer players in the world. Truly an elite athlete that in many countries would be shunned for her sexual orientation, and not allowed to marry the person of her choice, but has been outspoken for women's and LGBT rights. I absolutely respect her for that. She also makes half a million dollars a year playing soccer (good for her, I respect that), but whines about making less than men...not men specifically though...male soccer players...damn the gate receipts or any reflection on the economics that has made her quite wealthy...but I guess not wealthy enough... Billy Jean King is probably better known for beating a 50+ year old man than being #1. No disrespect for her athletic ability or activism on women's sports or LGBT rights, but I have yet to hear any details from her as to how to integrate transgenders into female sports at competitive levels. Also Martina Navratilova, also a former #1 of at least the same calibre, and also an advocate for LGBT rights, has voiced concerns about transgender females competing in female sports...(maybe she's also subconsciously against gay marriage, INow?) From Wiki quoting Navratilova: "And what I think I have come to realise, the biggest thing for me, is just that the level of difficulty that trans people go through cannot be underestimated. The fight for equality and recognition is just huge. That being said, still, for me, the most important thing in sports... and you have to remember, trans rights and elite sports are two different things, although of course they are connected. What's the right way to set rules so that everybody feels like they have a fighting chance? It feels to me that it is impossible to come to any real conclusions or write any meaningful rules until more research is done." I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest these letters are probably agenda and politically driven, with a fair assessment of the importance of acceptance and sports participation for transgenders, but little if anything about how to fairly integrate transgenders at competitive levels.

They are an advocacy group for women's sports. They aren't required to make or enforce the rules for them. Any other examples you can cite to prove you're missing the point? The claim was " a majority of women's sports organizations" favoured transgender inclusion in competitive women's sports without caveat. One which INow, to his credit, rescinded.

The distinction is that it's not coming from women's sports organizations, who would be obligated to come up with an acceptable and workable set of rules, rather than simply make supportive statements.

At the risk of sounding racist, homophobic, anti-gay marriage, and transphobic, my carpentry experience suggests pounding triangular pegs into round holes is not always a great idea.