J.C.MacSwell

58 minutes ago, mistermack said:

It's a pointless exercise debating how to make a level playing field. Handicapping contestants might be interesting from a horseracing point of view, for gambling purposes, but it's not very interesting from a human competition angle. 

 

At recreational level sport it's workable and many aspects of it are already in place, but of course you are correct for elite levels if females are to have elite levels similar in competitive fairness to men.

Elite female levels are what need protected and of course what transgender females are asking to join. No one is excluding them from playing sports, as I think you have mentioned a number of times.

I would add that it would be more conducive to transgender acceptance if they could be encouraged in sports outside of elite female levels where many have natural advantages.

8 hours ago, iNow said:

Of course I could if I dug around for them, but as this is just a discussion forum unlikely to change the parts of the world I’d like to see changed, I see the ROI of such an effort as nearly zero and consequently also have zero plans right now to use my time doing so. 

Cato took a swing at it last fall though: https://www.cato.org/regulation/fall-2022/transgender-athletes-fair-competition-public-policy#analyzing-performance-factors

First of all. That's an excellently written article that frames much of the competitive side of the debate quite nicely, even if the assumptions are very simplistic.

+1

It builds a model that adds up Natural ability (factor N), Effort level in training and competition (factor E), and effects of hormone Therapy (factor T), that assumes N + E + T = P,  P adding up to performance. (note that T can be positive or negative)

I think it can be a useful model going forward in this discussion and to some degree outline why this is not just politically difficult but technically difficult and probably impossible for elite levels as intended for female sports.

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

I’ve suggested no conspiracy . 

There are many advocates for inclusion of transgenders in elite female sports that claim expertise.

Can you not cite any of their ideas that even claim to provide all three?

With current best practices:

Athlete health safety, competitive fairness, and inclusion.

Pick two at most, or seriously compromise at least one.

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

No. The ones which with high probability listed then after that voted against those ideas (or had one senior leader veto them)… Ideas for thresholds to inclusion were SURY introduced by members of those panels… members far more expert than myself on which metrics make sense for the various different sports and performance categories. 

This is my speculation. It seems likely. It seems VERY likely. No, I cannot provide a citation. It’s a conjecture. A hypothesis. An informed suggestion based on how humans making rules for large revenue generating organizations tend to behave. 

Just bc they didn’t agree on metrics for inclusion in the final language of that one publication doesn’t mean that high quality ideas for inclusive metrics weren’t shared nor advocated for during the lead up to that press release. 

So...

9 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Or do you think there was some conspiracy to suppress ideas that included all three?

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

I’m sure there are meeting minutes and emails and follow ups from those Olympic committees you cited above. 

The ones that saw no way forward that included competitive fairness, athlete health safety, and inclusion?

Or do you think there was some conspiracy to suppress ideas that included all three?

1 minute ago, iNow said:

That politics and emotions often get in the way of us hearing and successfully implementing intelligent ideas. 

It tells me that too often humans sacrifice the good in pursuit of the perfect… The demand of perfection becomes the enemy of progress and the status quo continues to thicken. 

What are these ideas? 

47 minutes ago, iNow said:

I said: 

“My position throughout has been that it's entirely possible to design and implement sports division qualification thresholds and guidelines which allow for transgender inclusion.

This position remains entirely valid despite my stipulation that I personally lack sufficient expertise to design those aforementioned guidelines personally myself.”

THEN JCM said:

There’s just no way you can think this is possibly true… 

“Welp… I can’t figure this out, nor can iNow… that obviously means not a single human can nor ever will.” 

 

The IOC (International Olympic Committee) guidelines say "don't use testosterone targets to figure this out...but do what you have to do...figure it out!" 

World Athletics decides "We need to exclude transgenders that have gone untreated through puberty, and use very onerous testosterone targets for the rest plus same for the intersex (event dependant)".

What does that tell you?

And why the need to misrepresent my claim as "not a single human can nor ever will.” 

Even though I suspect that may be true...I didn't say that!

If you think my claim is so preposterous why don't you let it stand as it is?

25 minutes ago, swansont said:

Are the targets arbitrary? My understanding is that many transgender women undergo hormone replacement therapy

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/feminizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

The NCAA policy in 2011 makes no mention of target levels, only that the athlete needs to be undergoing HRT

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/inclusion/lgbtq/INC_TransgenderHandbook.pdf

Yes. The targets are arbitrary. They are set as a compromise between health and "competitive fairness" but despite the health concerns the targets are generally becoming more onerous (thus the difference between current and 2011 for NCAA swimming). The IOC guidelines suggest, but don't mandate, that they should not be used at all but leave it to each sports body to decide how to regulate their respective sports.

If they are already below the targets after transitional therapy, they can, depending on the sport compete but that seems rather rare, and IMO they would have already been handicapped enough, or more than enough to be uncompetitive. But most struggle to reach and maintain target levels.

The targets are a contentious issue as IIRC was discussed in your link on Semenya.

(I know she is intersex not transgender but the principles are the same)

(forcing/incentivizing drug treatments beyond those their health providers would recommend for those wishing inclusion...notwithstanding)

3 hours ago, swansont said:

If trans women will dominate these competitions, given that they have been competing for some time in various places, where are they? We should be flooded with trans women winning competitions if this thesis is true.

Can you provide of an example of a trans female competing at elite level without handicapping her, through arbitrary testosterone reduction targets?

The ones unwilling or unable to comply with the targets have essentially been banned/excluded.

Let's not pretend they've been given a chance to perform at their best.

Here is an article from over a year ago arguing that Lia Thompson was not at an advantage because  her hormone therapy treatments removed the advantage. (though NCAA allows twice the testosterone level of US swimming, which allows twice the normal female range)

Apologies for the print size. I don't seem to be able to reduce it after cutting and pasting.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html

"Ms Hogshead-Makar also drew attention to the difference between Ms Thomas's pre-HRT times and her times today. Her best time in the 500 yards was 5.6 per cent slower than before transition, while her 1,000 yards time was 7.5 per cent slower and her 1,650 yards time was 7.2 per cent slower.

That is less than the 10 to 11 per cent gap Ms Hogshead-Makar says is usually found between men's and women's races. However, according to the LGBT sports news site OutSport, the difference in NCAA men and women's records varies by distance: 11.2 per cent for the 200 yards, 7.2 per cent for the 500 yards, and 6 per cent for the 1,650 yards.

It is also possible that Ms Thomas' old times do not represent how fast she'd swim if she had never begun HRT. They date from an earlier point in her evolution as a swimmer, and therefore would not reflect any improvements in her technique or mindset since then."

So despite all her training and maturing, her times are significantly slower (thus arguing for inclusion)

Obviously there is no evidence that her times would be even slower if she was forced to half her testosterone from the current NCAA target, or half it again to get to what is required now fior some sports...but one can make a much easier argument that it would than one that it wouldn't.

You would have to argue against some of the arguments commonly made for inclusion to continue to deny that Trans females have advantages over cis-gendered females.

On 7/25/2023 at 10:24 AM, iNow said:

My position throughout has been that it's entirely possible to design and implement sports division qualification thresholds and guidelines which allow for transgender inclusion.

This position remains entirely valid despite my stipulation that I personally lack sufficient expertise to design those  aforementioned guidelines personally myself. 

 

Unfortunately when it comes to the necessary expertise...currently the other 8 billion of us lack it as well.

...and there's nothing remotely indicating that will ever.change 

2 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

!

Moderator Note

This is a problem we probably don't deal with effectively. Staff wants you to use the Report function so the threads don't get derailed, then we're reluctant to derail a thread with reports on reported posts if it isn't actionable, but I can see it looks the same as ignoring the report.

 

Okay thanks. I appreciate the comment.

2 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

!

Moderator Note

You reported it as a "personal attack", which 3 staff members judged it wasn't . If you want to report someone using a Strawman argument, please be clear. 

 

Thank you. I now at least know that you made a decision. 

I don't feel the need report it as a strawman argument. I just wanted to make it clear that I have nothing against transgenders, some of whom agree with my position with regard to their inclusion in elite sports.

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, but some are more biased than others...

Certainly.

18 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I get it, you'll just pretend the awkward questions didn't happen, so it can't be a biased reply... 

All replies here are biased Dim. Mine are no exception.

27 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Are you going to report me again?

That's a good excuse... 😉

I'll probably just ignore you for the most part if the posts aren't especially bad, but still reply to some of your better posts.

I reported INow the other day for intentionally misrepresenting my position on transgenders and so far...crickets...

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's clear for all too see, your bias is driving your thinking, and all I can honestly conclude is, the reason for that is, you fear they/women might beat you in a fight; then your no man at all... 🙄

But I'm an optimistic person, so please explain how I'm wrong in my thinking...

Ask him... 🧐

You're wrong in your thinking that such statements and questions belong in this thread.

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Sex testing hurts more females that are outliers than transgender females.

This article is useful for reading the history of sex testing in sport. All it's done since the 40's is hurt female outliers. If one thinks this focus  helps women... think again. All because of the biblical/historical assertion that humans are binary.

By outlier females you mean intersex females?

50 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

If he can't, then, by his definition, he's a woman.

Citation?

Where did he give a definition where you can honestly conclude that?

16 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Nope, that's the excuse...

The reason is, different...

What's the reason?

23 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that the current efforts to include trans athlete's is to artificially maintain a standard model of hormonal balance, and that's the wrong way...

I agree, but it's not a reason to stop them playing... 

That's correct. Though I think they are slowly coming around to that conclusion they seem to be trying very little else.

The reason they want to stop them from playing is the obvious advantage they have over XX athletes. You can claim some of them don't and that's true but are they elite athletes? Certainly not in a manner they consider competitively fair.

LOL Dim. You are so off base I can't even take offence to that.

50 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Strawman. You are making it a choice. Does bolding words (shouting) increase the veracity of your arguments?

I doubt anyone would want their penis removed and undergo invasive hormonal therapy because they arbitrarily made a choice. Like-wise trans-males.

And we go around in circles.

Bolded for emphasis only. Making it clear that the act of making the choice had no known effect on Sports performance.

Obviously statistically gender males have a clear advantage. 

(FYI, most trans males don't have a penis)

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

I try not to limit my thoughts to such minuscule mostly irrelevant niches of society. 

Unlike you, I believe solutions for inclusion are available. This isn’t logically hard, it’s just politics hard.  

Since that's an accusation that you can't substantiate outside of what you describe as an irrelevant niche, I'm going to report this as a personal attack.

17 minutes ago, iNow said:

Mostly the part where across nearly every relevant metric (improved health, improved self confidence, improved social and economic conditions, reduced suicidality, etc.) those who receive gender reassignment treatments fare FAR better in both the short and the long term than those who don’t (or those who suffer in silence or who fear doing what they feel is right due to risk of public outcry and backlash). 

Apologies for not being clear.

What part of of this social and drug experimentation in the name of inclusion in elite female sports do you like so far?

13 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Yes, but that makes it a singular factor like testosterone rather dubious.

Thank you. Two years in, I'm finally getting my point across....Any attempt at levelling the XY vs XX playing field based on testosterone alone is all but certain to fail...while placing onerous and unnatural testosterone targets on a vulnerable group.

23 minutes ago, CharonY said:

 And as your link actually argues, the biological concept of sex (regardless whether one agrees with the author's definition or not) is not really helpful or applicable to human questions (such as sports).

 

Which link and where in it? I certainly would not agree with that. What part of high school XY athletes out performing XX National Teams needs to be misunderstood not to realize that's incorrect?

With XY individuals vastly outnumbering XX individuals at and around current elite women's level, how long would it take to ask why this level is elite at all and why does this category exist?

That folks, outlines the threat to elite women's sports when XY athletes are included, or included with some vague self refereed gender categorization...unless of course onerous levels of testosterone targets with associated health risks are imposed.