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Ordinary man's attempt to explain GR split from curved space Rate Topic: -----

#41 michel123456 


Molecule

View PostGreg Boyles, on 27 December 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

That's where we differ, because I accept that spacetime is likely to be remeniscent of an elastic fabric and that its geometry can be altered in a way remeniscent of an elastic fabric being puckered by a heavy weight.

You shouln't accept such a bad analogy.

Quote

I think we are flogging a dead horse with this guy folks.

We are no more likely to convince him of GR than Copernicus was of convincing the catholic church that the earth orbited the sun.

It is an exercise in futility.

Let him amuse himself with his self delusions and let us close off this thread.

Why?
Basically, Anilkumar is right.
Have you understood his question?

-------------
Einstein was the one who condamned aether theories to death. In the meanwhile wordings like "the fabric of spacetime" reintroduce the concept of spacetime made of some material. But we know it is not made up of something, or at least SR and GR do not need spacetime to be made up of something. Every time someone talks about "the bending of spacetime", it is wrong. Nothing bends because there is nothing to bend in the first place. It should be better to say that our mathematical concepts are resumed by "we can explain some phenomenas as if our system of reference based on orthogonal axis is bending in order to keep the graphic as a straight line", since a straight line is more commonly accepted as a natural path.

This post has been edited by michel123456: 27 December 2011 - 01:48 PM

Michel
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#42 swansont 


Icon
Shaken, not Stirred

View PostAnilkumar, on 27 December 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

Aren't Political decisions taken by majority votes, whereas Scientific decisions through, logical/rational contemplation?

I don't think science is lead by might.

Let's all follow rationality, together.


Rationality is only part of the process. There is experimental confirmation as well. The most well-thought-out, rational explanation might not actually correspond to what happens in nature if you base the logic on an unsound premise. You always have to tie it back to what we observe to happen.
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum

Stop failing the Turing test!

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#43 Greg Boyles 


Molecule

View Postmichel123456, on 27 December 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

You shouln't accept such a bad analogy.


Why?
Basically, Anilkumar is right.
Have you understood his question?

-------------
Einstein was the one who condamned aether theories to death. In the meanwhile wordings like "the fabric of spacetime" reintroduce the concept of spacetime made of some material. But we know it is not made up of something, or at least SR and GR do not need spacetime to be made up of something. Every time someone talks about "the bending of spacetime", it is wrong. Nothing bends because there is nothing to bend in the first place. It should be better to say that our mathematical concepts are resumed by "we can explain some phenomenas as if our system of reference based on orthogonal axis is bending in order to keep the graphic as a straight line", since a straight line is more commonly accepted as a natural path.



If Anilkumar theory and the mathematics behind it (is there actually any?) predict the countless experimental results that GR has predicted, and there is a consensus from the physics community that his theory is a valid replacement for GR........then I will take it seriously.

Until then I regard Anilkumar as a crack pot.
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#44 michel123456 


Molecule
Maybe you haven't read Anilkumar's long posts.
Here what he wrote: (bolded mine)

View PostAnilkumar, on 27 December 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

(...)And believe & want us to believe Space is a notion and Gravitational field simply acceleration, because GR is experimentally successful. It is successful, but with irrational conclusions. It works because, the conclusion that Space is a notion doesn't pose any hindrance to the practical functioning of Matter. It works because the mathematics is correct. It works because, its working does not depend on whether Space is a notion or not, it does not depend on whether Gravitational field is an abstraction or not.
(...)


He has no other Theory, he is talking (asking) about the interpretation of GR.
Michel
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#45 Greg Boyles 


Molecule

View Postmichel123456, on 27 December 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

Maybe you haven't read Anilkumar's long posts.
Here what he wrote: (bolded mine)



He has no other Theory, he is talking (asking) about the interpretation of GR.



Then I will leave both of you to your delusion of grandeur.
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#46 Anilkumar 


Baryon

View PostGreg Boyles, on 27 December 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

I think we are flogging a dead horse with this guy folks.

We are no more likely to convince him of GR than Copernicus was of convincing the catholic church that the earth orbited the sun.

It is an exercise in futility.

Let him amuse himself with his self delusions and let us close off this thread.

View PostGreg Boyles, on 27 December 2011 - 03:21 PM, said:

If Anilkumar theory and the mathematics behind it (is there actually any?) predict the countless experimental results that GR has predicted, and there is a consensus from the physics community that his theory is a valid replacement for GR........then I will take it seriously.

Until then I regard Anilkumar as a crack pot.


Hello Greg Boyles,

What would you regard as, the person who, decides before he listens?

What would you regard as, the person who, coins terms like 'mathematical illusion'?

What would you regard as, the person who, agitates in surplus?

Stay cool, mate.

The sky hasn't fallen.

I am not asking anybody to implement anything here.

We are discussing here.

I am saying, [at the risk of sounding foolish.]

"this, I feel is wrong.

I would like you to say this.

What is your opinion?"

That's all.

I am saying Relativists are wrong, because;

I don't want stances like YOU to explain to me with such arguments as "Einstein/Relativists can't be wrong". And,

it sounds absolutely wrong to me to say, Space is a notion.

Will you not allow me to present my explanation?

You know what Greg Boyles?

You are arguing, not because you understand GR, but because,

you believe in it, because there are so many who say it is correct.
I want to be rationally convinced.

I think you are the first person to benefit from this thread.

Right from the beginning, you asserted spacetime is a physical thing,

now you learnt it is an analogy.

Whether my issue settles or not by this thread, I have had one benefit.

I have a role model in Swansont & Michel123456,

The patience & tolerance shown by them is just amazing.

They sure will bring a change in matters.

They have brought a change in me.

Impatience & intolerance don't change anything.

They need change.

Of course I am not adamant on changing anything here. I am just asking, to be rational.

This is a platform to exchange views, with sane attitude.

We have gathered here to learn from each other.

We haven't gathered here to abuse each other.

Look so many great people have gathered here, with so much of information to exchange.

I have recieved information from StringJunky, IMEgdall and others.

I have recieved affection and consideration from everybody.

I am greatfull to everybody.

Enjoy it man.

Why exchange heat?

Stay cool.
Stop this.
Thank you.

This post has been edited by Anilkumar: 28 December 2011 - 04:32 AM

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#47 URAIN 


Baryon

View PostAnilkumar, on 21 December 2011 - 03:18 AM, said:

I haven't talked anything against this.
I never said, science isn't a collaborative effort.
I am merely objecting some aspects of an already proposed theory.

I think such talk will not help resolve this matter.


"rationality is not the last word"
"our highest arbiter is experimental agreement"
"it matters nothing how rational, logical, and common-sensical a theory is"

I pity the person who 'says this and also at the same time claims to be scientific'.


What is "empirical evidence" OR Why do we go for experimental evidence?

When we propose something, we go and check for empirical evidence, because we want to verify whether it happens/occurs in the proposed way or not.

Only that happens/occurs which is rational.

Irrational things do not happen/occur.

When we propose something, we check its rationality, by checking whether it happen/occurs in the proposed way or not.

I.E. checking for experimental agreement is checking for rationality of the proposal.

"Experimental agreement" is a name given by Science to 'Rationality'.

They don't mean different.


GR says Space is a notion.

I claim or propose that Space is an entity.

Do you want experimental evidence for the existence of 'Space'?

I can give it.

If there is evidence of Space,

it is also a proof that

'spacetime curvature' proposed by GR is a notion.


----------------------------------***********************



I am reading.


Let's first ascertain;

Isn't 'spacetime curvature' regarding spatial and temporal things?


----------------------------------***********************



How can a bend in the mathematical construct,
become a bend in the Physical?




Which abstraction is replaced by which abstraction?

Which entity is not there?




Which concept?


As because, GR has been able to describe what happens;

the Relativists want,

the Description - a mathematical construct,

to take the place of,

the entity,

which is making it happen?


I am aware that they cannot be separated.

But I did it to show that spacetime cannot separate itself away from its originators, the Space & the Time; and say
'I am something altogether different, I don't belong to either Space or Time or I don't know who is Space and who is time'.

Thank you everybody.
Have a nice day.
Imaatfaal I am sorry if I have hurt you. I know you love truth more than any thing else.


Hello Anilkumar,

You are in truth side. You are not convinced the process of space curvature, therefore you raised the objection in the expectation, anyone may convince you. You are not rejecting the GR conclusion but you are in wait of convince. You are in truth side, because if anyone convince then you will accept it.



You are faced so many extraordinary men inthis discussion. You faced the strong protest by members. Then also you havenot lost your patients. You had answered all, suitably without harming their FEELINGS.



Einstein was the great scientist and his theory was appreciated by all over the world. When lot of well things come from a person, then it makes to believe that all things came from him are well. It is the natural thing. There is no mistake in it. Time takes to adjust with the truth.



I haven't seen any pride in you by the thought,I have disproved the great scientist's conclusion and I have defeated the everyone. You have given the respect to everyone, who came in contact with you.I have seen ideology of 'I am not great' in you. (I think in daily life also you are like this.). This is the main principle of URAIN (U R All I am Not) also. But myself, I forget it, in sometimes.



You raised the question about correctness of 'space curve'. It is natural thing of questioning, if we are not convinced by anything. But we have very careful in the questioning conclusion of a great scientist. You are aware about it. You have taken all the all precautions.

I have also questioned the conservation law and invariance theorem.

http://www.sciencefo...nservation-law/

Because it also does not says, for which reason conservation takesplace in this universe and it will not explain that if any thing newly appeared then, why not it is not a new creation?



Anilkumar, I have not good communication skill like you and I am not wise as like you. But, I am confident that, from me what will come, that will convince you on this matter. When I was given response at first time, (to this related topic, space curve.) then I was doubtfully expressed my views. But, now by the grace of God, I become perfect in my understanding. I am sure it will convince you.



I have a wish to publish my writings in a science journal like NATURE. Because from a journal it will reach the world wide readers and it is my wish. For convince, you have to wait until, it to be published. My writings are going on,it will take some time to be completed.



(If here any journalists are there or anyone would like to help me to publish this, I request those that please help me to publish my writings in the journal.)

This post has been edited by URAIN: 29 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

Your's is energy, mine is space.


WWW.SPACEANDCONSENSUS.WORDPRESS.COM

http://baseforreinca....wordpress.com/


I have to understand the Physics and being get related with Physics.

Thanks to all who are guiding me.
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#48 Anilkumar 


Baryon

View Postswansont, on 27 December 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:

The abstraction describes behavior of other things.

The only information we can gather about things is how they behave. That's what science does. Behavior is best described mathematically. Questions about the nature of things is not science but are also not answerable. All we have are observations of behavior. Any description of "what it is" are analogies, and only give an illusion of answering that question.

Our understanding of the universe is knowing how it behaves.



My humble opinion is, this abstraction leads to irrational conclusions like Space warp and Space is a notion.



View Postswansont, on 27 December 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:

GR never makes any claim to be other than an abstraction to explain how kinematic behavior will proceed.


It is concluded that Mass warps Space & that Space is a notion, which is not a rational conclusion.



View Postswansont, on 27 December 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

The most well-thought-out, rational explanation might not actually correspond to what happens in nature if you base the logic on an unsound premise.


The case here is; an irrational conclusion based on a sound premise.


------------------------*************************


View Postmichel123456, on 27 December 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

He has no other Theory, he is talking (asking) about the interpretation of GR.

You are absolutely correct. I am extremely grateful to you for understanding me rightly.

This post has been edited by Anilkumar: 30 December 2011 - 05:00 AM

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#49 swansont 


Icon
Shaken, not Stirred

View PostAnilkumar, on 30 December 2011 - 04:59 AM, said:

My humble opinion is, this abstraction leads to irrational conclusions like Space warp and Space is a notion.

It is concluded that Mass warps Space & that Space is a notion, which is not a rational conclusion.

The case here is; an irrational conclusion based on a sound premise.



That you find it irrational is an opinion. But the abstraction is a premise, that the effects can be explained geometrically. The conclusion that the geometry is not flat near a mass is the conclusion. But light does not travel in a straight line as viewed from a flat geometry, so just how irrational can the conclusion be?
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum

Stop failing the Turing test!

My SFN blog: Swans on Tea

To release the hounds, click the [+] sign ->
1

#50 Anilkumar 


Baryon

View Postswansont, on 30 December 2011 - 10:40 AM, said:

. . . But the abstraction is a premise, that the effects can be explained geometrically. The conclusion that the geometry is not flat near a mass is the conclusion. But light does not travel in a straight line as viewed from a flat geometry, so just how irrational can the conclusion be?


Respected, Swansont.

It is not as simple as that.

You are forgetting the serious misleading part.

The conclusion that;

"geometry is not flat near a mass, light does not travel in a straight line, because the geometry is not flat."

has serious implications, i.e.

it implies and it is also said so, that

Mass tells space how to curve, and that curved space tells Matter how to move.

This is a terribly bad conclusion. [With all due respect.]



Mass does not affect Space at all [I repeat, except occupying it].

Space cannot be affected at all [I repeat, except being occupied].

Space cannot affect Matter at all [I repeat, except allowing itself to be occupied by it].



View Postswansont, on 30 December 2011 - 10:40 AM, said:

That you find it irrational is an opinion.



You are closing your eyes to what I want to say, by terming it as just,

'an opinion',

The thing is that,

through my opinion,

I can prove that these things can't happen,

that it is irrational to say these things are happening,

and also appraise you of, what made Relativists assume the irrational judgment.

Through my opinion,

I would also give a rational estimation of what is happening.

which, you are at liberty to,

reject if you find it wrong.


------------------------****************************


View PostURAIN, on 29 December 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:


Wish you all the best.

This post has been edited by Anilkumar: 31 December 2011 - 02:36 AM

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#51 swansont 


Icon
Shaken, not Stirred

View PostAnilkumar, on 31 December 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:

Mass does not affect Space at all [I repeat, except occupying it].

Space cannot be affected at all [I repeat, except being occupied].

Space cannot affect Matter at all [I repeat, except allowing itself to be occupied by it].


Repeated assertions are not evidence, and nature has no obligation to be understandable.

Light does not travel in a straight line when passing near a massive body. Is that true or not?
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum

Stop failing the Turing test!

My SFN blog: Swans on Tea

To release the hounds, click the [+] sign ->
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#52 Sorcerer 


Molecule
Yes swansont but its equally arguable that mass effects light, not that mass effects space. Your assumption is that light always travels in a straight line. and only because space is warped by mass that it curves. Why not just assume light it warped by mass, seems much simpler to me.
Hi
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#53 Greg Boyles 


Molecule

View PostSorcerer, on 31 December 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

Yes swansont but its equally arguable that mass effects light, not that mass effects space. Your assumption is that light always travels in a straight line. and only because space is warped by mass that it curves. Why not just assume light it warped by mass, seems much simpler to me.


Why does the probability of mass warping spacetime offend your sensibilities so severely????

You sound much like the members of the modern 'Flat Earth Society'who still believe that the Earth is flat beyond all rationality and in their face evidence.
0

#54 swansont 


Icon
Shaken, not Stirred

View PostSorcerer, on 31 December 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

Yes swansont but its equally arguable that mass effects light, not that mass effects space. Your assumption is that light always travels in a straight line. and only because space is warped by mass that it curves. Why not just assume light it warped by mass, seems much simpler to me.


The apparent position of an object changes when mass is near the line of sight. That's not an assumption. Light traveling in a straight line is the model, and it seems to work. GR encompasses more than just the effect on light, and we prefer "big picture" theories to isolated explanations. The geometric interpretation explains/predicts other phenomena, too. But I'm focusing on this particular one because it's one of the easier phenomena to discuss.
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum

Stop failing the Turing test!

My SFN blog: Swans on Tea

To release the hounds, click the [+] sign ->
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#55 User is online  StringJunky 


Atom

View PostSorcerer, on 31 December 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

Yes swansont but its equally arguable that mass effects light, not that mass effects space. Your assumption is that light always travels in a straight line. and only because space is warped by mass that it curves. Why not just assume light it warped by mass, seems much simpler to me.


We will probably never know the true essence or nature of things because they are beyond our physical grasp. Einstein came up with an idea that has thus far matched observation in terms of describing and predicting the behaviour of things...what's not to like? Science, through Quantum Theory, is also working on the idea of some sort of virtual particle exchange between attracting masses to describe the gravitational force but for reasons beyond my knowledge at the moment they haven't cracked it yet, if they ever do. GR doesn't work below Planck dimensions so they really would like QT to work for gravity. Two things; Science is a continuum of change in the face of emerging anomalies but any new theory must agree with GR where it is valid because the numbers will stay the same...GR will never be wrong within its domain of validity so scientists are confident and happy with it where it works.

The point is, it does not matter if Gravity is due to a virtual particle exchange, curved spacetime or indeed any other phenomenon as long as the theory accurately describes and predicts behaviour.. Physics, when you distill it down, is the study of energy not objects. I think physicists would be happy to work with the description of invisible pink fairies holding hands, or flying to and fro, from one mass to another to describe gravity as long as the numbers work and it predicts what they can actually see.

This post has been edited by StringJunky: 31 December 2011 - 02:49 PM

" In the absence of data, we have more degrees of freedom to wave our arms."- Anon.

A beginner's question doesn't require a PhD answer.
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#56 Dekan 


Atom

View PostStringJunky, on 31 December 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

The point is, it does not matter if Gravity is due to a virtual particle exchange, curved spacetime or indeed any other phenomenon as long as the theory accurately describes and predicts behaviour.. I think physicists would be happy to work with the description of invisible pink fairies holding hands, or flying to and fro, from one mass to another to describe gravity as long as the numbers work and it predicts what they can actually see.


Isn't that the viewpoint, which enabled Ptolemaic Earth-centered Astronomy to last 1500 years, and survive into medieval times?

The Ptolemaic theory worked. In the sense that the numbers worked. The theory accounted for the behaviour of planets. And described what we could actually see. Moreover - it enabled us to predict things such as conjunctions of planets, eclipses, and so on.

The medieval expression used for this was: "Saving the appearances".

Which meant: it doesn't matter what the underlying, physical explanation, for the planetary movements, is. As long as we have some kind of theory which describes how they appear to move - we're happy. The Ptolemaic theory explained planetary movement in terms of imaginary epicycles and deferents. And in modern times, we have imaginary warped spacetime.

Human nature doesn't change much over the centuries, does it?
Science is an innate attitude of mind. You either have it, or you don't. If you grew up as a kid who liked telescopes, microscopes, and chemistry sets, you have it.


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#57 URAIN 


Baryon

View PostGreg Boyles, on 31 December 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

Why does the probability of mass warping spacetime offend your sensibilities so severely????

You sound much like the members of the modern 'Flat Earth Society'who still believe that the Earth is flat beyond all rationality and in their face evidence.


( Pls dont consider it as response to thread but only for your this post)

Consideration of entities will change when we observe the things with wide sight and narrow sight.

(Earth is flat, correct when walk or drive car, but when we see astronomical entities by telescope then it is sphere. While riding car we compare earth with car's round tyre. while seeing with telescope we compare it with other planets)

Cosideration is different than Really how it is?
Your's is energy, mine is space.


WWW.SPACEANDCONSENSUS.WORDPRESS.COM

http://baseforreinca....wordpress.com/


I have to understand the Physics and being get related with Physics.

Thanks to all who are guiding me.
0

#58 Greg Boyles 


Molecule

View PostDekan, on 31 December 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:

Isn't that the viewpoint, which enabled Ptolemaic Earth-centered Astronomy to last 1500 years, and survive into medieval times?

The Ptolemaic theory worked. In the sense that the numbers worked. The theory accounted for the behaviour of planets. And described what we could actually see. Moreover - it enabled us to predict things such as conjunctions of planets, eclipses, and so on.

The medieval expression used for this was: "Saving the appearances".

Which meant: it doesn't matter what the underlying, physical explanation, for the planetary movements, is. As long as we have some kind of theory which describes how they appear to move - we're happy. The Ptolemaic theory explained planetary movement in terms of imaginary epicycles and deferents. And in modern times, we have imaginary warped spacetime.

Human nature doesn't change much over the centuries, does it?


I believe the model worked at the levels of observational precision at the time. But as observational pecision improved through the ages the earth centred model no longer provided accurate predictions of planetry movement.

Hence the drive to find a new model that worked better.

View PostURAIN, on 1 January 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

( Pls dont consider it as response to thread but only for your this post)

Consideration of entities will change when we observe the things with wide sight and narrow sight.

(Earth is flat, correct when walk or drive car, but when we see astronomical entities by telescope then it is sphere. While riding car we compare earth with car's round tyre. while seeing with telescope we compare it with other planets)

Cosideration is different than Really how it is?


The fact that the earth can be regarded as flat, for convenience, for very local events does not make the flat earth theory in any way valid.
0

#59 Anilkumar 


Baryon

View Postswansont, on 31 December 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Repeated assertions are not evidence, and nature has no obligation to be understandable.

Honorable Swansont, Respected ladies & gentlemen.

Here is the evidence in the form of “explanation based on logic.”

I am trying to give this explanation to the best of my knowledge and ability which I know are not adequate to take up such a major task. I present this Explanation to the Scientific world for their perusal. I am aware that it certainly needs a touch by the hands of expert Logicians & Mathematicians.

I shall begin my explanation by reiterating, that the conclusion by the Relativists that

Mass tells space how to curve, and that curved space tells Matter how to move;

Is a terribly bad conclusion. [With all due respect.]

It is bad conclusion because;

Mass does not affect Space at all [I repeat, except occupying it].

Space cannot be affected at all [I repeat, except being occupied].

Space cannot affect Matter at all [I repeat, except allowing itself to be occupied by it].

[There is a reasonable cause for my repeated use of the word ‘Relativists’. I do not intend to demean anybody. If there is anybody I respect the most in my life; it is the knowledge-seeker. In fact the Relativists are the Scientists; who apart from being knowledge-seekers they are also the Knowledge-givers, thanks to whom we know so much about this universe. But here I use the word ‘Relativists’ because I strongly believe, that there is a difference between what the GR [or the mathematics of GR] says and what Relativists say. There are logical reasons to support what I am saying. By this I don’t mean GR is wrong. No, GR is not wrong. Its interpretation is wrong. So to distinguish between what GR actually says and what Relativists have concluded from it; I sometimes need to use the words – ‘The Relativists say . . .’. Please kindly be sympathetic with me for raising this issue. I beg before you. I do not intend to demean anybody. There is a need to establish the fact.

The GR does not demand ‘Space warp’. It does not deny the existence of Space. It does not say that Gravity is an abstraction. It does not say space is a notion.]

So before going into the bowels of the mathematics of GR, it’s necessary to discuss Space & Gravitational field which will be of help to us in comprehending this matter.

Now let us take up the issue, as to why;

Mass does not affect Space at all [I repeat, except occupying it],

Space cannot be affected at all [I repeat, except being occupied], and

Space cannot affect Matter at all [I repeat, except allowing itself to be occupied by it]?

It is so because [I have said these things in my earlier posts, but I find it necessary to repeat them here to make this Explanation comprehensive]

The definition of Space doesn’t permit it. So what is Space? [I will try to portray it to the best of my knowledge.]

Space is a Fundamental entity, which is the vast infinite empty vacancy in which all the Matter of the Universe is placed. It is the basic state of Space that it give occupancy or allow itself to be occupied and so be Empty. Anything that is inside Space is not Space or a part of it. To place anything inside it – there should be emptiness. And emptiness cannot be acted upon, except filling it. Emptiness cannot have any properties, as there is nothing inside it to have any properties. Only properties are the ones that can be acted upon. Absence of properties cannot be acted upon. Space is the absence of any properties, presence of vacancy i.e. emptiness.

It is the basic requirement of this Universe. It is necessary for placing all the Matter of the Universe. Its existence is Fundamental.

If we say Space is a notion or an Idea, then where is this Universe placed?

Is it placed in an idea?

Are we living in an idea?

This is illogical.

Now why do the Relativists say so?

I say with all due respect and utmost humility that they have suffered a misconception.

We need to discuss Gravitational field before discussing the misconception.

What is Gravitational field?

Is it just Acceleration?

Impossible.

It cannot be merely acceleration. Acceleration is just a characteristic of Gravitational field.

I will try to explain Gravitational field.

Firstly what is a field? [Everyone knows this; but as this explanation is contextual of this matter, I find it necessary to present the context.]

A field is a name given to the phenomenon called ‘Action at a distance’. The matter acts on Matter, like Magnet acts on magnetic materials, Electric charge acts on electric charge, at a distance. It is the influence or a condition created/generated by that material in the area around it.

Gravitational field is the influence or a condition created/generated by Matter around itself.

Just like the condition created/generated by magnets around themselves for magnetic materials,

like the condition created/generated by electric charge around itself for charged particles.

Gravitational field is condition created/generated by Matter around itself for other Matter [be it light, energy, object or any other manifestation of Matter].

How does this affect matter?

When any particle of matter or its manifestation enters the area of influence of a massive body it creates a disturbance in the ‘condition’ around it. And as a result there is a reaction. And that reaction in turn affects the particle that created the disturbance, similar to the effect on a charged particle when it enters the electric field of another particle & similar to the effect on a magnetic material when it enters the magnetic field of a magnet.

I am saying the Gravitational field is an entity, though not in the fundamental sense, but because it is the product of the Matter [in proportion to its mass]. Like a proton & it’s positive charge. Properties of matter do not have separate existence from their Matter.

When we equate Gravitational field to only Acceleration, we are leaving out the Matter’s ability to react at a distance on other matter. This is one of the reasons for the spacetime curvature proposal to come into being. It forced the Relativists to invent SPACE WARP to account for the action at a distance, because they had left out the Gravitational field and took into consideration only one characteristic of it, the Acceleration. What made them fall upon Space and say it warps? It is their misinterpretation of the mathematics of GR. We will discuss about it later. But now let us see why we can’t accept spacetime curvature and why we should consider the Gravitational field?

By saying ‘Matter/mass affects Space, and the Space affects motion of Matter’;

We are assuming that Matter/mass needs a mediator to convey itself to other Matter.

Matter can act on Matter directly without any mediation, through Gravity.

Whereas, Space is not capable of becoming that mediator, and

Matter does not need a mediator when the Gravitational field as a ‘condition’ or ‘action at a distance’ is considered.

The Gravitational field is an established fact like the other fields [Electric and Magnetic].

And Space being emptiness, does not have any structure to warp.

Now what do the stress-energy tensors and the Einstein field equations depict?

They do not describe the spacetime curvature. There is nothing in it to get deformed there. But the Einstein field equations actually describe the PHYSICAL GRAVITATIONAL FIELD like the other field theory equations of the Electric & Magnetic Fields, do.

Then why did the relativists claim spacetime curvature?

It is the misinterpretation of the mathematics.

How/why does GR work then?

There are three aspects of GR.

The theory, the equations/solutions, & the conclusion.

The theory - It is the creation of the most extraordinary mind mankind has ever produced.

The equations/solutions – It is the impeccable mathematics.

These two make it work.

The interpretation/conclusions – It is the human work, based on the fact that the above two are working. But this has nothing to do with the two.

Now let us come to misinterpretation part.

What is the misinterpretation?

Here is the excerpt from the collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Volume-6: The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity.

Quote





We understand from the above that

Einstein suggests;

“The Gravitational field of Empty space should be zero”.

There is nothing wrong with this proposition.

Mathematically it is absolutely correct.

And with this inherent proposition itself the field equations/solutions and the theory are immensely successful.

But at the same time,

This very proposition has led to the misconception.

This proposition has created an unrealistic relationship.

This proposition projects or builds a mathematical relationship between Gravitational field & Space.

By assuming, in the absence of matter, the Gravitational Field to be zero, it renders that Gravitational field comes from Space.

It builds a relationship between Gravitational field and Space.

This is not the result of the Mathematics.

This is the result of the assumption.

The mathematics does not pronounce that the Gravitational field is linked to Space.

The assumption builds that link.

The Relativists overlooked this fact, moreover instead of considering this as the consequence of the assumption and countering this illicit relation by counter-assuming that the Field equations actually do not describe the spacetime curvature, as there is nothing in it to get deformed there, but instead the Field equations actually describe the PHYSICAL GRAVITATIONAL FIELD like the other field theory equations of the Electric & Magnetic Fields do, they compensated by giving curvature to space. And so consequently, as the Space being an empty place could not be curved, i.e. the definition does not permit it, they ruled out its existence and declared it a notion, and kept it as spatial distances and said Space exists only as the spatial distances because the spatial distances were necessary for depicting the curvature in the form of geometry.

This is my humble opinion. I have no other intentions other than expressing what I felt about spacetime curvature. Now it is here for your valuable scrutiny.

Thank you and, Regards.

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#60 swansont 


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View PostAnilkumar, on 1 January 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

No, GR is not wrong. Its interpretation is wrong.


GR involves non-Euclidean geometry. Ergo, the space it describes is curved in the presence of mass. The error here is in your interpretation of "space".
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