miketempleton Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) 'Black holes banish matter into cosmic voids' "But Haider's team also found that a surprising fraction of normal matter - 20% - is likely to be have been transported into the voids. The culprit appears to be the supermassive black holes found in the centres of galaxies. Some of the matter falling towards the holes is converted into energy. ... This energy is delivered to the surrounding gas, and leads to large outflows of matter, which stretch for hundreds of thousands of light years from the black holes, reaching far beyond the extent of their host galaxies." Edited March 11, 2016 by miketempleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 The energy they are referring to is caused by the (mainly frictional) heating of matter that falls towards a balck hole. This blows some of the matter away again. And, in extreme case, powers polar jets. I have no idea what "the dark energy associated with a Universal black hole" means. What is a "Universal black hole"? And why would it have dark energy associated with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) The energy they are referring to is caused by the (mainly frictional) heating of matter that falls towards a balck hole. This blows some of the matter away again. And, in extreme case, powers polar jets. "Some of the matter falling towards the holes is converted into energy". Meaning, it's not the same matter that falls toward the black hole that is pushed far beyond the host galaxy. The matter converts to energy. This energy then propagates through the polar jet. This energy then pushes the particles of matter, the gas, that it encounters far beyond the host galaxy. I have no idea what "the dark energy associated with a Universal black hole" means. What is a "Universal black hole"? And why would it have dark energy associated with it? Just as the energy associated with a black hole pushes the particles of matter, the gas, far beyond the host galaxy. the dark energy associated with a Universal black hole may be pushing the superclusters outward and away from us. Edited March 12, 2016 by miketempleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Just as the energy associated with a black hole pushes the particles of matter, the gas, far beyond the host galaxy. the dark energy associated with a Universal black hole may be pushing the superclusters outward and away from us. That would imply there was some central point in the universe that all galaxies are moving away from. That isn't how current models work - rather everything is moving away from everything else, with no central position. (The simplest model, conceptually, for this is an infinite universe.) Also dark energy is required to describe the accelerating expansion of the universe (not just expansion). If there were some central "thing" pushing things away, then the effect would decrease with distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 That would imply there was some central point in the universe that all galaxies are moving away from. That isn't how current models work - rather everything is moving away from everything else, with no central position. (The simplest model, conceptually, for this is an infinite universe.) What if the notion of a Great Attractor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor) is incorrect? There is also the notion of something beyond the Great Attractor "pulling" on the Milky Way. "The survey also confirmed earlier theories that the Milky Way galaxy is in fact being pulled towards a much more massive cluster of galaxies near the Shapley Supercluster, which lies beyond the Great Attractor." What if the 'stuff' moving directionally through the Universe is being pushed as part of the outflow associated with the Universal black hole powering the Universal jet we exist in? Also dark energy is required to describe the accelerating expansion of the universe (not just expansion). If there were some central "thing" pushing things away, then the effect would decrease with distance. If the dark energy is propagating through the Universal jet at relativistic speeds it would cause the matter in it to accelerate, analogous to a stick thrown into a river. As long as the water is flowing faster than the stick the stick will continue to accelerate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 The Great attractor is a local group influence. Even though it doesn't seem that way from pop media sources. It's part of our local group. Not universe global expansion which is as Strange already described above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) The Great attractor is a local group influence. Even though it doesn't seem that way from pop media sources. It's part of our local group. Not universe global expansion which is as Strange already described above. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_flow "According to standard cosmological models, the motion of galaxy clusters with respect to the cosmic microwave background should be randomly distributed in all directions. However, analyzing the three-year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) data using the kinematic Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect, astronomers Alexander Kashlinsky, F. Atrio-Barandela, D. Kocevski and H. Ebeling found evidence of a "surprisingly coherent" 6001000 km/s[1][2] flow of clusters toward a 20-degree patch of sky between the constellations of Centaurus and Vela." There is directionality to matter in the Universe which can't be explained by the Big Bang. "NASA's Goddard Space Center considered that this could be the effect of a sibling universe or a region of space-time fundamentally different from the observable universe." There is no reason to hypothesize sibling universes. It is much more likely caused by a larger version of what we see throughout the universe. A Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in explains the 'dark flow'. Edited March 12, 2016 by miketempleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Yes I read those articles. Thanks but our galaxy if it's attracted to the great attractor. Means we're in a gravitational bound system. (Localized group) The cosmological constant applies to non gravitational bound bound systems. Those style articles don't give the details such as the sheer size of our universe iteself. Dark flow is part of our local supercluster. This subject comes up quite often on arguments against the cosmological principle and homogeneous and isotropic expansion. What is often overlooked is the size scales of influence involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) If dark flow was definitively part of our local supercluster then they would not be hypothesizing sister universes in order to explain it. And the great attractor, if it were to exist, is not responsible for the directionality of the Milky Way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor#Debate_over_apparent_mass "The survey also confirmed earlier theories that the Milky Way galaxy is in fact being pulled towards a much more massive cluster of galaxies near the Shapley Supercluster, which lies beyond the Great Attractor." All of this directionality AND dark energy are explained by a Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in. Edited March 12, 2016 by miketempleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 No the great attractor is a mere 150 and 250 Mly from the Milky way. Roughly 47 to 49 Mpc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor cosmology looks at scales where 100 Mpc is needed to measure a homogeneous and isotropic distribution. 100 Mpc is still an extremely small slice of the observable universe. Which is 28.5 Gpc is diameter. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe The Metrics in Cosmology uses scales 100 Mpc, though there is a trend to now use 150 Mpc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) Which doesn't explain the directionality of the Milky Way, dark energy or the need to hypothesize sibling universes.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor#Debate_over_apparent_mass"The survey also confirmed earlier theories that the Milky Way galaxy is in fact being pulled towards a much more massive cluster of galaxies near the Shapley Supercluster, which lies beyond the Great Attractor." It also doesn't explain the directionality of the great attractor itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapley_Supercluster#Current_interest "It has been found that the Great Attractor and all the galaxies in our corner of the universe (including our galaxy, the Milky Way) are moving towards the Shapley Supercluster."A Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in explains the directionality of the matter AND dark energy. Edited March 12, 2016 by miketempleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Sure it does, local superclusters have localized influence. Dark energy is on a much grander scale. Your ignoring that the strength of gravity falls off radially. The cosmological constant is an average energy density throughout the entire universe. Localized gravity is influence that overpowers dark energy near clusters. Look at the sheer difference in size scales. Massive blackhole accretion jets are even more directional and localized. There is no way accretion jets is going to replace dark energy. Mathematically it's impossible. Completely has the wrong distribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) Sure it does, local superclusters have localized influence. Dark energy is on a much grander scale. Your ignoring that the strength of gravity falls off radially. The cosmological constant is an average energy density throughout the entire universe. Localized gravity is influence that overpowers dark energy near clusters. The "localized" gravity doesn't accout for the directionality of the matter in our supercluster toward another supercluster. Massive blackhole accretion jets are even more directional and localized. There is no way accretion jets is going to replace dark energy. Mathematically it's impossible. Completely has the wrong distribution. The article refers to the particles of matter, the gas, as "filling the voids with more matter". The article is not referring to just the accretion jets. It's referring to the outflow of matter filling the void. This is exactly what would occur for a Universal black hole pushing the matter in the Universe outward and away from it. Edited March 12, 2016 by miketempleton -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) Right your talking dynamics within localized superclusters and localized surrounding regions. There is no such thing as a universal BH Edited March 12, 2016 by Mordred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 Right your talking dynamics within localized superclusters and localized surrounding regions. I'm discussing the directionality of the matter in our supercluster as being caused by a Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in. I'm explaining what is causing the directionality of the matter in our supercluster, including the directionality of the "great attractor" itself, and what is causing what is referred to as dark energy as both being caused by a Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) The dynamics inside or near superclusters has absolutely nothing to do with dark energy.. You've also mentioned directionality. Dark energy has no direction it is a scalar not vector influence. Edited March 12, 2016 by Mordred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 I'm discussing our being in a Universal polar jet powered by a Universal black hole. If this is the case then it would explain the directionality of the matter in the Universe and be the reason for dark energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I'm discussing our being in a Universal polar jet powered by a Universal black hole. But there is no such thing. If this is the case then it would explain the directionality of the matter in the Universe and be the reason for dark energy. On large scales there is no directionality. And dark energy is isotropic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 On large scales there is no directionality. And dark energy is isotropic. On large scales there is directionality or they wouldn't be hypothesizing sister Universes pulling on the matter in this Universe. A Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in is the reason for the directionality of matter through the Universe and dark energy. -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 A Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in is the reason for the directionality of matter through the Universe and dark energy. There is no such thing and no evidence for such a thing. Simply repeating it won't magically make it true. On large scales there is directionality or they wouldn't be hypothesizing sister Universes pulling on the matter in this Universe. Who are "they"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) Who are "they"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_flow#Criticisms "NASA's Goddard Space Center considered that this could be the effect of a sibling universe or a region of space-time fundamentally different from the observable universe." http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/05/dark-flow-tugs-from-beyond-the-observable-universe/ "It is dark in the sense of having mysterious origins origins that may lie beyond our cosmic horizon, or perhaps even in another universe." http://www.cosmosup.com/dark-flow-from-other-universe-engulfing-galaxy-clusters/ "The Dark Flow is mysterious because present distribution of mass in our universe do not account for this, it indicates presence of some external source outside our universe influencing and sweeping matter from our vicinity." It indicates the presence of a Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in. Edited March 12, 2016 by miketempleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 There is no dark flow on a universal scale. I've already explained that is a local supercluster flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 There is no dark flow on a universal scale. I've already explained that is a local supercluster flow. http://www.cosmosup.com/dark-flow-from-other-universe-engulfing-galaxy-clusters/ "The Dark Flow is mysterious because present distribution of mass in our universe do not account for this, it indicates presence of some external source outside our universe influencing and sweeping matter from our vicinity." It indicates the presence of a Universal black hole powering the Universal polar jet we exist in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 If you read the full link on the first article it gives the located distance from us. Which is the value I provided earlier. The first link explains the history of the dark flow model. However it also provides counters arguments. A detail you may have missed is the model started before locating the source of mass. As well as finding out it was 1/10 its predicted mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketempleton Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) If you read the full link on the first article it gives the located distance from us. Which is the value I provided earlier. The first link explains the history of the dark flow model. However it also provides counters arguments. A detail you may have missed is the model started before locating the source of mass. As well as finding out it was 1/10 its predicted mass. The "great attractor" is theorized in an attempt to explain the directionality of the matter moving through the Universe. It being 1/10th the predicted mass means it can't be "pulling" on the matter as it was theorized to do. There is also the directionality of the Milky Way which can't be explained by the "great attractor" that is theorized to be getting pulled by something even more massive than the theorized "great attractor". This theorized massive entity just so happens to exist beyond the "great attractor". There is also the directionality of the "great attractor" itself which is theorized to be getting pulled by something which also just so happens to reside in the direction the Milky Way is being pulled. Other Universes outside of our Universe are theorized to be pulling on the matter in our Universe causing it to move directionally through the Universe. http://www.icrar.org/home/hidden-galaxies "“We don’t actually understand what’s causing this gravitational acceleration on the Milky Way or where it’s coming from,” he said." A Universal black hole powering the Universal jet we exist in explains the directionality and dark energy. Edited March 12, 2016 by miketempleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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