U.S.A. Slipping Towards Third World Status: Will No Longer be the World Leader

[Asian Guy]

Interesting article: http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Temp/Temp-TheUSIsNotNumber1ButItDoesDoNumber2.html

 

I guess most humans have not learned as yet how to maintain an empire for the long term. One needs to consider history, human psychology, and resource maintenance and then plan accordingly if they want their empire to last.

[Flareon]

Those statistics may sadly be true, but I'd still rather live in this good ol' country than anywhere else. Besides, the only statistics that I'll accept are numerical graphs, read VERY carefully at that. Describing statistics in words can warp information in every which way a manipulator intends. Statistics + anything.ORG = I don't buy it.

 

Yes, America needs to get her act together on many fronts (healthcare, economics, etc...) and we are on too many countries' sh*tlist, but I'm optimistic that our future leaders will begin to remedy many of the ills and strengthen our global position and reputation.

[Ophiolite]

but I'd still rather live in this good ol' country than anywhere else.

I'm curious as to what you are basing this on. Have you lived in other countries? How many other countries have you visited? I'm not disputing your conclusion, just trying to get a sense of how you arrived at it.

[Flareon]

I appreciate the question.

 

First, I'm sorry that I don't wish to divulge my life circumstances that lead me to feel in such a way, but I'll just say yes, I have lived overseas--as a matter of fact, I'm not even a US citizen.

 

And I don't believe in blind patriotism, but I recognize that I have benefitted greatly by living here.

[Pangloss]

This has been predicted for many years, but I think it's still important for Americans to be aware of. Complacency is the real democracy-killer.

[darth tater]

As people begin to flee America--the land of the setting sun--perhaps, at long last, our immigration problems will be solved.

 

Perhaps terrorists will begin to hate someone else, and just maybe, the next time a world disaster occures, the world will look somewhere else for help.

 

'Tis an ill wind indeed that brings nothing of benefit.

[Flareon]

Complacency is the real democracy-killer.

 

Please elaborate for me, what you mean by "complacent," specifically, to whom/what?

[Mokele]

It'd be a pity if the US declined much, since it's the perfect place for me, namely an industrialized nation with copious reptiles in the southern areas. The only other contender is Australia, which is useless to me because they refuse to allow any importation of foreign herps.

 

On the upside, I've got dual citizenship with the US and UK, so I can move whenever I feel like.

 

Mokele

[Pangloss]

Please elaborate for me, what you mean by "complacent," specifically, to whom/what?

 

Sure. Americans are complacent in much the same way that many people are -- we're not exceptional examples of this by any means. Most folks don't want to deal with problems that don't immediately concern them. So time and again we let things slip and slide until they reach a point where we have to deal with them, and usually with fewer options at that point.

 

But the real danger with complacency is that is breeds demagoguery. And believe me, demagoguery is alive and well in the US of A. (And it's not just coming from the right. What Al Franken is trying to sell you is every bit as dangerous as what Rush Limbaugh is trying to sell you.)

 

A good example of this are the right-wing fundamentalistas who are convinced that "activist judges" are ruining our democracy. Sure, there have been a few examples where (mostly lower court) judges forgot about the concept of judicial restraint. But generally speaking judges are put in the impossible position of having to make an unpopular decision that happens to be exactly what the law requires. The real problem is with the people who unscrupulously put them in that position in the first place, either through inaction or through rabble-rousing demagoguery.

 

This is exactly what destroyed the first great representative democracy -- the Roman Republic. Demagogues like Saturninus and the Grachi brothers riled up the people against the ultra-conservative factions and forced a series of monstrous cause-and-effect events that ripped that country apart. It wasn't overnight, either, it was a cumulative effect. It took over a century of increasing waves of nastiness before Augustus finally threw in the towel. I believe we would have gone down a similar road years ago if it wasn't for the Constitution, the judges willing to defend it, and the unwillingness (thus far) of politicians to exert power over the unarmed judiciary (thank god).

 

But as with the Romans, demagoguery in our time is also a cumulative effect. What riled folks up one year isn't enough the next -- it takes more. I worry that it's just a matter of time before that constitutional wall breaks down from the constant tidal flow of uninformed and/or mislead public opinion.

 

The Romans knew it was happening to them too, by the way. Catalina, Saturninus and Crassus exploited it. Pompey was exploited BY it. Cicero flowed with it. Cato ranted endlessly about it. Caesar knew it, and used it against itself because he had no other option (hey TT, that's the true meaning of the phrase "crossing the Rubicon", by the way).

 

They all knew it. But in the end, none of them could stop it.

 

 

 

This is slightly off-subject (peripheral), but it's one of my favorite quotes from Plutarch:

 

"The abuse of buying and selling votes crept in and money

began to play an important part in determining elections."

-- Plutarch, The Roman Republic

 

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject in a nutshell. It's not really bad that Americans are that way -- we have our strengths as well. We are what we are, there's no sense losing sleep over it. But there are times when we need to spur ourselves into action. It's been my general observation that these times have been coming more and more frequently.

 

I worry about it more than any other issue.

[ecoli]

The US may have many problems, but saying we're "slipping towards thrid world status" is a big stretch.

[Sayonara]

The US may have many problems, but saying we're "slipping towards thrid world status" is a big stretch.

I tend to agree. The title of the thread lacks perspective.

[mustang292]

I believe it was George Washington who said that our government would only last about 300 years. Well we past it.

 

However, I don't think it can go on much longer without some kind of major overhaul. You can't trust any you elect in to office anymore.

 

We now have the technology to have a True Government by the People. We all have access to computers and we all should be able to vote on a law instead of letting these scum bags who we think we can trust make them for us.

 

I mean, come on. Did you know that in Virginia it is illegal to have any other kind of sex than missionary? You can't tell me that the majority wanted that law. That's just one stupid law. There are a Sh*t load of others.

[Mokele]

I believe it was George Washington who said that our government would only last about 300 years. Well we past it.

 

Um, by my calculations, even if we take 1776 as the begining (which is far from given, what with the articles of confederation and such), then the government is 228 years old, 229 soon. Over 70 years until the big 3-0-0.

 

We now have the technology to have a True Government by the People. We all have access to computers and we all should be able to vote on a law instead of letting these scum bags who we think we can trust make them for us.

 

Nothing is more destructive to the concept of freedom this country was founded on than simply letting the majority always have the final say. Mob rule has never worked, especially for those with the misfortune to disagree with the mob.

 

Mokele

[mustang292]

good points mokele.

[Pangloss]

We now have the technology to have a True Government by the People. We all have access to computers and we all should be able to vote on a law instead of letting these scum bags who we think we can trust make them for us.

 

<<shudder>>

 

"Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the others."

-- Winston Churchill

[Flareon]

Sure. Americans are complacent in much the same way that many people are -- we're not exceptional examples of this by any means. Most folks don't want to deal with problems that don't immediately concern them. So time and again we let things slip and slide until they reach a point where we have to deal with them' date=' and usually with fewer options at that point.

 

But the real danger with complacency is that is breeds demagoguery. And believe me, demagoguery is alive and well in the US of A. (And it's not just coming from the right. What Al Franken is trying to sell you is every bit as dangerous as what Rush Limbaugh is trying to sell you.)

 

A good example of this are the right-wing fundamentalistas who are convinced that "activist judges" are ruining our democracy. Sure, there have been a few examples where (mostly lower court) judges forgot about the concept of judicial restraint. But generally speaking judges are put in the impossible position of having to make an unpopular decision that happens to be exactly what the law requires. The real problem is with the people who unscrupulously [i']put them in that position in the first place[/i], either through inaction or through rabble-rousing demagoguery.

 

This is exactly what destroyed the first great representative democracy -- the Roman Republic. Demagogues like Saturninus and the Grachi brothers riled up the people against the ultra-conservative factions and forced a series of monstrous cause-and-effect events that ripped that country apart. It wasn't overnight, either, it was a cumulative effect. It took over a century of increasing waves of nastiness before Augustus finally threw in the towel. I believe we would have gone down a similar road years ago if it wasn't for the Constitution, the judges willing to defend it, and the unwillingness (thus far) of politicians to exert power over the unarmed judiciary (thank god).

 

But as with the Romans, demagoguery in our time is also a cumulative effect. What riled folks up one year isn't enough the next -- it takes more. I worry that it's just a matter of time before that constitutional wall breaks down from the constant tidal flow of uninformed and/or mislead public opinion.

 

The Romans knew it was happening to them too, by the way. Catalina, Saturninus and Crassus exploited it. Pompey was exploited BY it. Cicero flowed with it. Cato ranted endlessly about it. Caesar knew it, and used it against itself because he had no other option (hey TT, that's the true meaning of the phrase "crossing the Rubicon", by the way).

 

They all knew it. But in the end, none of them could stop it.

 

 

 

This is slightly off-subject (peripheral), but it's one of my favorite quotes from Plutarch:

 

 

 

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject in a nutshell. It's not really bad that Americans are that way -- we have our strengths as well. We are what we are, there's no sense losing sleep over it. But there are times when we need to spur ourselves into action. It's been my general observation that these times have been coming more and more frequently.

 

I worry about it more than any other issue.

 

I see what you are saying. Here's my take on complacency:

 

I make a habit of listening to the BBC and other news sources outside the U.S. I wish more Americans would do the same, instead of watching Fox, or some other propaganda-machine. Our media keeps the people believing in crap, sheltering them from real dangers and real information while keeping them in fear of the things according to the political agenda. I mean even the Terri Shiavo (let her RIP) story was basically raped and pillaged by the media and a poor family's tragedy became sensationalistic brouhaha. The media does not have it's priorities straight, and neither do many of our politicians.

 

Yes, complacency is dangerous, especially when the information the Americans feed on is flawed. Knowledge is power, and we are powerless when we are uninformed. If we want to change the complacency that could make us feeble, we should start there.

[ecoli]

Nothing is more destructive to the concept of freedom this country was founded on than simply letting the majority always have the final say. Mob rule has never worked' date=' especially for those with the misfortune to disagree with the mob.

Mokele[/quote']

 

But, you can't please everybody...

[Sayonara]

Unless you're New Zealand, in which case you seem to get pretty close (even the opposition only complain about things as a political formality - really they're quite chuffed to be there.)

[Pangloss]

I see what you are saying. Here's my take on complacency:

 

I make a habit of listening to the BBC and other news sources outside the U.S. I wish more Americans would do the same' date=' instead of watching Fox, or some other propaganda-machine. Our media keeps the people believing in crap, sheltering them from real dangers and real information while keeping them in fear of the things according to the political agenda. I mean even the Terri Shiavo (let her RIP) story was basically raped and pillaged by the media and a poor family's tragedy became sensationalistic brouhaha. The media does not have it's priorities straight, and neither do many of our politicians.

 

Yes, complacency is dangerous, especially when the information the Americans feed on is flawed. Knowledge is power, and we are powerless when we are uninformed. If we want to change the complacency that could make us feeble, we should start there.[/quote']

 

Some great points there, for sure.

[atinymonkey]

The world is shrinking daily, and democracy is becoming the last bastion of nationalism. As the last vestiges of institutional racism subside, the only thing preventing the world village from emerging on the political scene will be democracy. In Europe the European Union is breaking down individual country's nationalism and building a democratic multi nation state. Unfortunately America is politically isolated and the transition may well turn out to be violent and destructive to both the government and the economy.

[-Demosthenes-]

Besides, the only statistics that I'll accept are numerical graphs, read VERY carefully at that. Describing statistics in words can warp information in every which way a manipulator intends. Statistics + anything.ORG = I don't buy it.

 

Very true. EX:

The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).

With 193 countries (about) in the world it could also be said that: The United States is ahead of 75% of the countries in the world in terms of literancy.

See how easily it is said different ways?

[Coral Rhedd]

Very true. EX:

 

With 193 countries (about) in the world it could also be said that: The United States is ahead of 75% of the countries in the world in terms of literancy.

See how easily it is said different ways?

 

Indeed.

[Douglas]

I make a habit of listening to the BBC and other news sources outside the U.S. I wish more Americans would do the same, instead of watching Fox, or some other propaganda-machine. .

And the BBC is NOT a propaganda machine??

[Tetrahedrite]

And the BBC is NOT a propaganda machine??

Compared to FOX, it isn't!

[Aardvark]

a democratic multi nation state.

 

You do realise that is a contradiction in terms? A democratic multi nation state is, by definition, impossible.