Jordan14 Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I don't know if anyone in this forum reads New Scientist, but this weeks issue had a very interesting acticle; about gravity fluctuation. It explained how a pendulum act eratically during and solar eclipse, first observed by french physicist Allais this activity seems to flaw Einstein's relitivity laws. This behavior during eclipses have been noticed many times during different experiments, also during eclispes gravity has been noted to drop largely. Obviously this development is in it's first stages, but I would like to ask other people's veiw on gravity fluctuation and any links that would be of interest, as Allais papers are mostly in french, and that's not my best language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I don't know if anyone in this forum reads New Scientist' date=' but this weeks issue had a very interesting acticle; about gravity fluctuation.....[/quote'] please give a link to an online version of the article and/or quote some representative passages from it thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan14 Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 Here are a few links: http://www.eclipse2006.boun.edu.tr/sss/paper01.pdf http://arxiv.org/ftp/gr-qc/papers/0408/0408023.pdf help you enjoy the acticles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artorius Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 I don't know if anyone in this forum reads New Scientist' date=' but this weeks issue had a very interesting acticle; about gravity fluctuation. It explained how a pendulum act eratically during and solar eclipse, first observed by french physicist Allais this activity seems to flaw Einstein's relitivity laws. This behavior during eclipses have been noticed many times during different experiments, also during eclispes gravity has been noted to drop largely. Obviously this development is in it's first stages, but I would like to ask other people's veiw on gravity fluctuation and any links that would be of interest, as Allais papers are mostly in french, and that's not my best language.[/quote'] They are many flaws in Einsteins theories,however they are many aspects of GR/SR that continue to stand up to tests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Here are a few links: http://www.eclipse2006.boun.edu.tr/sss/paper01.pdf http://arxiv.org/ftp/gr-qc/papers/0408/0408023.pdf hope you enjoy the articles Jordan these were fascinating. Thanks. I had not heard of the Allais effect, or if i heard earlier I must not have been paying attention. thes articles spell it out. there does seem to be something that different experiments have confirmed. and seems only partly explained by the cool airmass overhead---the sudden high density that the authors of the first paper were talking about Allais apparently notice this first some 40 years ago Maybe swanson, or one of the others at SFN, has read more about it i am pleasantly baffled and dont know what to say about this Offhand i doubt that it will challenge Gen Rel. I expect there will be some other explanation of whatever eclipse gravity effects are real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Tycho?] Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 I've heard about this, but only in the context of an effect that wasn't really repoducable in experiments and probably had some simple cause. These articles suggest that it is real, and not so simply explained. This remindes me of the mystery of the... gemini probe? I dont remember which probe it is, but one of our oldest probes is receding from the solar system at slower than it should be. Nobody has thus far been able to explain this. Very interesting stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 '']I've heard about this, but only in the context of an effect that wasn't really repoducable in experiments and probably had some simple cause. These articles suggest that it is real, and not so simply explained. This remindes me of the mystery of the... gemini probe? I dont remember which probe it is, but one of our oldest probes is receding from the solar system at slower than it should be. Nobody has thus far been able to explain this. Very interesting stuff. that is the Pioneer anomally and it has affected two probes which have gone out of the solar system I think it is quite interesting and there are proposals to send more probes out far enough to measure this effect some more and elimiminate possibilities like a bad clock or some lopsided failure thing about the design. the strange thing is that both of the Pioneer probes experienced the same (apparent?) extra acceleration towards the sun----or you could say their progress outwards away from the sun was slowed at the same extra unexpected and unexplained rate there are many technical articles in arxiv.org about Pioneer anomaly which you can get with that keyword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan14 Posted November 27, 2004 Author Share Posted November 27, 2004 I read about this as well, and there are many people complaining that there is a small mistake in gen rel. There say that Allais findings could be linked in with the Pioneer abnormalty. Much more evidence will be needed though to even attempt to overule gen rel. But what I think is most compelling aspect of Allais' finding is that the experiments have been repeated five or six times in different countries, at different times and the results have been the same, because at first I would have conceived the results to be a mistake or instrumens failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 They are many flaws in Einsteins theories,however they are many aspects of GR/SR that continue to stand up to tests what flaws are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan14 Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 I think it's just the ideas of the mad scienctists that produce abstract calculations to prove that time travel is possible. However even though Allais' finding are strange I definatly don't think his ideas were that of a mad scienctist I think that his results are indeed something that gan rel need to consult over. Also the pioneer abnormity might be also what Artorius is talking about, this proves that there is a problem with gen rel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 "If I have seen further it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants," said Sir Isaac Newton.* I believe that scientists love the excitement and uncertainty of probing the edges of understanding, where knowledge and ignorance meet. They like to do so, however, with their feet firmly planted upon a solid foundation. Suggestions that their foundation is not solid are typically greeted with very unscientific responses, couched in scientific terms. It appears that Allais's effect has been largely ignored because it threatened the solidity of at least a portion of the foundation. It is good to see it being given some serious attention. [*I know the context was not as I am employing it here.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Also the pioneer abnormity might be also what Artorius is talking about, this proves that there is a problem with gen rel. I think it proves nothing of the sort. When you drop a feather 1 m to the floor and observe that it takes longer than .45 seconds, have you shown a problem with Newton's law of gravitation and his Second law, or have you shown that you need to take air resistance into account? Absent detailed knowledge of the atmosphere, can you come to a valid conclusion about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Gravity shielding wasn't observed during the 1999 eclipse in this experiment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 what is pioneer abnormity? edit: i googled it, and i got 38 results. none of them had the words in the same phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 what is pioneer abnormity? The pioneer probes have undergone an acceleration that can't be explained - they aren't moving as fast/far as they should. It's happened to both' date=' and they are moving in roughly opposite directions. more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 how far are they? there may be some strong magnetic fields or large objects out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPL.Luke Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=041018_pioneer_path_02.gif∩=The+paths+of+Pioneer+10+and+11+and+the+similarly+distant+Voyager+craft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 obviously no one KNOWs why this is happening to the pioneers... does anyone here have thier own theory? if not, what is the most popular current theory among leading scientists as to this problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan14 Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 I wasn't saying that the pioneer abnormity was the end of Gen Rel, I myself beleive that nothing can be actually disproved. But it's the fact that the pioneer abnormity seems to sign to the scientific community that Gen Rel COULD have have a part in the pioneer abnormity. I don't actually think there is actually a good reason for the pioneer abnormity. I myself think it MIGHT be related to the Allais' finding, and I think we can't ignore infomation against Gen Rel to move forward we have to think outside of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPL.Luke Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 well you know I would have to say that imho gravity is wroking normally and that some other effect is affecting the probes, because if gravity for some reason is tugging at the probes harder now than it was a while ago, then that would have to mean that some part of gravity got stronger over distance instead of getting weaker. now if you carry this idea out further then everything should be clustered closer to the center of the galaxy because objects on the outer rim of the galaxy are fealling a stronger force pulling them in then their counter parts are which are closer to the center of the galaxy also does anybody have a good chart of the probes respective courses? (better than the one on space.com) because otherwise we don't know if they have just been adjusting course towards the sun for a long time now or if they are now feeling a stronger attraction by gravity towards the sun,(insert other possibility here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Tycho?] Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Yes, if gravity was more powerful at distances then we thought, then the galaxy itself would have an unexplained extra pull on this. Why, looky here, dark matter is used to explain a mysterious extra pull that is observed on large scales. Interesting, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 well, gravity is stronger on short scales than the inverse square law states it should be. i believe the deviation starts at .1mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpdone Posted December 25, 2004 Share Posted December 25, 2004 obviously no one KNOWs why this is happening to the pioneers... does anyone here have thier own theory? if not' date=' what is the most popular current theory among leading scientists as to this problem?[/quote'] Yes I have one and it is directly related to the Alias effect. Having studied the problem for a while I realized that both spacecraft where designed to operate within the plane of the solar elliptic and after their respective missions were over they would likely stay within the plane. That being the case they would have a good chance to be subjected to a slight extra rarefying of gravity (extra shadowing) that would occur at both superposition and occlusion of the planet Jupiter. Gravitational shadowing is the major theory involved with the likely cause of the Alias effect. However in no account of experiments attempting to replicate it can I find any reference to the instantaneous regions of eclipse that would be different than the visible areas of same. By the time the visible eclipse stars the gravitational effect could be completely over or may not have been in line to occur at that location at all. As for the most popular conventional theory of cause I only know that venting by the propulsion systems and inaccurate estimates of solar radiation pressure seem to be the front runners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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