Microwaves in water

[steevey]

I've heard from some of some things that Masaru does that microwaves change some of the properties of water and makes the ice crystals form all weird and ugly. But, I can't find any valid experiments anywhere and I don't know exactly what microwaves are doing to water as to cause it to have different properties. Can anyone help me on this?

[swansont]

The claim is crap. Hope that helps.

[John Cuthber]

"But, I can't find any valid experiments anywhere "

Nor could the scientific community.

[TonyMcC]

Although this is new to me I am not so sure that it is crap. Heavy rain and clouds consisting of ice crystals can be detected by radar and submarines cannot use microwaves under the sea. If water absorbs microwaves then it seems to me quite possible that in the absorption some changes in the water properties may occur. Changes in water properties certainly occur in microwave ovens!

Edited April 17, 2011 by TonyMcC

[lemur]

Water must reflect microwaves or it couldn't be used in doppler radar to track storms, right?

[steevey]

The claim is crap. Hope that helps.

 

So your saying microwaves do nothing to water? What about the drastically different ice crystals then?

 

How about this:

 

The effects of a microwave on water linger for some amount of time, as microwaves do cause changes in things like the polarity interaction with other molecules, and that those effects linger but fade away after a while?

 

Also, do you have any sites to verify the experiments are not repeatable or anything? Because really any actual proof for either side would be good.

Edited April 17, 2011 by steevey

[TonyMcC]

lemur - Not all the energy contained in the em wave is reflected, some is absorbed. Also, particularly in the case of metal structures such as aircraft, re-radiation occurs where the aircraft itself can be considered an aerial. In this case currents flow in the structure and this will cause some of the incident power to be absorbed. I repeat, this idea of water changing its properties is something I haven't heard of before - but it does seem possible to me.

Edited April 17, 2011 by TonyMcC

[farmboy]

I'm on the science forums..... right?

[steevey]

Not all the energy contained in the em wave is reflected, some is absorbed. Also, particularly in the case of metal structures such as aircraft, re-radiation occurs where the aircraft itself can be considered an aerial. In this case current flows in the structure and this will cause some of the incident power to be absorbed. I repeat, this idea of water changing its properties is something I haven't heard of before - but it does seem possible to me.

 

Well only a few physical properties, nothing drastic, but it seems to cause plants to die for some reason. There's also people who have done experiments where all they do is change the spin of atoms and all of a sudden those molecules are highly poisonous, so I mean, it might be something subtle like that.

 

 

I'm on the science forums..... right?

 

No your in classical physics, where you can assume anything is possible.

Edited April 17, 2011 by steevey

[swansont]

So your saying microwaves do nothing to water?

 

I didn't say that microwaves do nothing to water — they will heat it up. But you didn't ask about that.

 

What about the drastically different ice crystals then?

 

What about them? You said you couldn't find any valid experiments. So why assume the claim is true?

 

How about this:

 

The effects of a microwave on water linger for some amount of time, as microwaves do cause changes in things like the polarity interaction with other molecules, and that those effects linger but fade away after a while?

 

Also, do you have any sites to verify the experiments are not repeatable or anything? Because really any actual proof for either side would be good.

 

Why would effects linger? Why wouldn't it be drowned out by thermal effects, given that kT >> h[imath]\nu[/imath]

 

Well only a few physical properties, nothing drastic, but it seems to cause plants to die for some reason. There's also people who have done experiments where all they do is change the spin of atoms and all of a sudden those molecules are highly poisonous, so I mean, it might be something subtle like that.

 

Citation please.

 

 

No your in classical physics, where you can assume anything is possible.

 

That's not even the case for speculations.

[steevey]

I didn't say that microwaves do nothing to water — they will heat it up. But you didn't ask about that.

But any effect that could linger? Like maybe its polarity changing or something like that?

 

 

 

What about them? You said you couldn't find any valid experiments. So why assume the claim is true?

Well the result of the experiment is the ice crystals, so thats fine. The conclusion however, is that the microwaves are responsible for that since they had non-microwaved water crystals and they had normal crystals.

 

 

 

Why would effects linger? Why wouldn't it be drowned out by thermal effects, given that kT >> h[imath]\nu[/imath]

Maybe the effects to completely diminish need the entire system to form an equilibrium or something like that. It's really the only explanation for why microwaved water appears to kill plants.

 

 

 

Citation please.

 

http://www.execonn.com/sf/

 

 

 

 

That's not even the case for speculations.

 

 

Oh so quantum mechanics gets to have any possibility it wants but classical mechanics can only be specific things? Thats discrimination and I really don't appreciate that.

 

 

[lemur]

lemur - Not all the energy contained in the em wave is reflected, some is absorbed. Also, particularly in the case of metal structures such as aircraft, re-radiation occurs where the aircraft itself can be considered an aerial. In this case currents flow in the structure and this will cause some of the incident power to be absorbed. I repeat, this idea of water changing its properties is something I haven't heard of before - but it does seem possible to me.

Why would clouds reflect some microwaves for radar to detect, while wet food and drinks absorb microwaves in a microwave oven? Is it something about the density?

 

 

 

[steevey]

Why would clouds reflect some microwaves for radar to detect, while wet food and drinks absorb microwaves in a microwave oven? Is it something about the density?

 

 

 

 

Oh, no, water absorbs microwaves, it causes water molecules to spin in a literal classical manner effecting how the molecules act in terms of polarity and causes water to heat in random places resulting in uneven distributions of heat. But I'm asking, what else does it due that supposedly kills plants and changes its structure as ice?

 

So swan, could that be a lingering effect? The water molecules are still spinning due to some type of inertia on a molecular level?

Edited April 18, 2011 by steevey

[lemur]

Oh, no, water absorbs microwaves, it causes water molecules to spin in a literal classical manner effecting how the molecules act in terms of polarity and causes water to heat in random places resulting in uneven distributions of heat. But I'm asking, what else does it due that supposedly kills plants and changes its structure as ice?

 

So swan, could that be a lingering effect? The water molecules are still spinning due to some type of inertia on a molecular level?

If it only absorbs, why do clouds show up on radar?

 

 

 

[steevey]

If it only absorbs, why do clouds show up on radar?

 

 

 

 

 

Because the electron returns to a lower energy state, thus releasing a particle of light. There's also the possibility that a radar releases multiple frequencies of light, and water isn't a black body, so it won't absorb all of them.

Edited April 18, 2011 by steevey

[mooeypoo]

Oh so quantum mechanics gets to have any possibility it wants but classical mechanics can only be specific things? Thats discrimination and I really don't appreciate that.

 

 

 

Both quantum physics and classical mechanics have clear rules. They don't have "all the possibilities you want".

 

I think you would do yourself a huge favor by taking an advanced physics course. Your view of the way physics works is quite far from how it actually DOES work.

[Fuzzwood]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

[swansont]

But any effect that could linger? Like maybe its polarity changing or something like that?

 

 

Well the result of the experiment is the ice crystals, so thats fine. The conclusion however, is that the microwaves are responsible for that since they had non-microwaved water crystals and they had normal crystals.

 

 

Maybe the effects to completely diminish need the entire system to form an equilibrium or something like that. It's really the only explanation for why microwaved water appears to kill plants.

 

The ONLY explanation? You can't think of any other way to kill a plant other than microwaving the water?

 

 

http://www.execonn.com/sf/

 

 

http://www.snopes.com/science/microwave/plants.asp

http://www.eclecticscience.net/experiments/001-microwave-plants/summary.html

 

 

Oh so quantum mechanics gets to have any possibility it wants but classical mechanics can only be specific things? Thats discrimination and I really don't appreciate that.

 

Same posting rules apply to QM, and all the other science boards. If it's unsupported, it gets moved to speculations. You don't get to just make stuff up.

 

Oh, no, water absorbs microwaves, it causes water molecules to spin in a literal classical manner effecting how the molecules act in terms of polarity and causes water to heat in random places resulting in uneven distributions of heat. But I'm asking, what else does it due that supposedly kills plants and changes its structure as ice?

 

So swan, could that be a lingering effect? The water molecules are still spinning due to some type of inertia on a molecular level?

(emphasis added)

 

When you say causes them to spin, are you implying that they are not spinning beforehand? How fast are these water molecules supposed to spin as the result of absorbing a microwave photon? Is this supposed to be a difference between conventional heating and microwave heating?

 

If it only absorbs, why do clouds show up on radar?

 

Liquid water doesn't only absorb, though that dominates at the frequencies used by weather radar. Ice tends to scatter and not absorb, but all of that depends on the frequency of the radar and size of the particles. i.e. water vapor gives a different result than water droplets, and the effect depends on the size of the droplets.

 

You wouldn't want to use a frequency where the scattering or absorption was particularly strong, since you couldn't then see what was on the other side of the cloud or how big it was.

[steevey]

The ONLY explanation? You can't think of any other way to kill a plant other than microwaving the water?

 

Well I had assumed they let it cool down because I thought it would have been too obvious that highly heated water kills them.

 

 

http://www.snopes.co...wave/plants.asp

http://www.eclectics...ts/summary.html

That's fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(emphasis added)

 

When you say causes them to spin, are you implying that they are not spinning beforehand? How fast are these water molecules supposed to spin as the result of absorbing a microwave photon? Is this supposed to be a difference between conventional heating and microwave heating?

 

http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/microwaves/water_rotates2.html

 

 

 

 

 

[swansont]

http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/microwaves/water_rotates2.html

 

I'm not asking for a tutorial; I already know this. If you had familiarity with the material, you wouldn't be asking the original question. If you can't answer the questions, say so.

[steevey]

I'm not asking for a tutorial; I already know this. If you had familiarity with the material, you wouldn't be asking the original question. If you can't answer the questions, say so.

 

Doesn't that tutorial explain what microwaves do? I mean I assume you already know what heating on a stove top does.

[mooeypoo]

swansont's understanding isn't the problem here, steevey, by your questions, it seems your understanding is not quite what the effects actually do.

 

If you cooperate, it will make this debate a lot more productive.

 

Doesn't that tutorial explain what microwaves do? I mean I assume you already know what heating on a stove top does.

 

Also, sorry, I just realized exactly what you're asking.... heating on a stove top (with flame or with electrical heating) has nothing to do with electromagnetic waves. It's heat transfer.

[swansont]

Doesn't that tutorial explain what microwaves do? I mean I assume you already know what heating on a stove top does.

 

I don't want to know what you can find on the internet, I want to know what you actually understand about the issue.

[steevey]

I don't want to know what you can find on the internet, I want to know what you actually understand about the issue.

 

Oh ok, well I know water is polarized and has ends with specific charges, and from what it seems like based on what I can gather, the concentration of microwaves makes the molecules of water literally vibrate and spin, but since the microwaves are sort of random, this happens in different areas in different amounts and causes the actual electromagnetic force fields generated by the polarized ends to fluctuate strength, and based on the surrounding water molecules, the molecules will vibrate faster and cause heat as a result of this. It seems a lot like just sending waves through a box, but I'm not quite sure if the single wave of a microwave is suppose to be so de-localized that it actually hits multiple water molecules throughout the entire microwave.

 

Although I think a simpler way to explain this could just be that the water molecules re-emit photons, just more localized.

Edited April 20, 2011 by steevey

[swansont]

So the molecules are already vibrating and spinning. Heating just increases that. The atoms collide and trade energy as well, and do so very quickly — there's no "lingering effect" and no difference in the results between this and conventional heating.