Dead being brought back

[Neco Vir]

I'm sure most of you have heard (I think it was last year, or maybe even older) that some scientists had brought dead dogs back to life. I was wondering if any research is being done on the technique they used for bringing back other living things?

 

 

[Moontanman]

Just how dead were they? Road kill from three weeks ago or resuscitated after a few seconds of not breathing?

Edited August 5, 2010 by Moontanman

[Neco Vir]

This was actually reported in 2005, my how time flies.

Upto 3 hours after death. Source: (Underneath Boffins create zombie dogs, second paragraph, halfway down the entire page)

Source

The technique is removing all blood from the veins and filling the veins with a cold salt solution. (From same source)

[CharonY]

I think they basically used hypothermia to minimize brain damage. Key was to induce the hypothermia quickly after cardiac arrest. If that was delayed, most died. It is more a means to delay death rather than bringing back the dead. It depends a bit on the definition of course, but biologically rarely something happens immediate.

Edited August 5, 2010 by CharonY

[Genecks]

I've been looking for that article for a couple of years.

 

I was somewhat against constantly mentioning it on SFN when talking about cryogenic hibernation for animals, because I didn't have the original source.

 

Hello, Neco Vir.

 

In terms of research being done, I would not be sure. But I'll look into it next week.

As far as I know, I've read that many people are attempting to understand the biochemistry behind frozen organisms bring brought back to life.

 

Furthermore, we could consider them still alive, as they were able to be brought back from the dead. Neurological death is some pretty serious death.

 

*looks into it a little bit*

 

I'm looking around this website: http://www.safar.pitt.edu/

 

In 1984 Dr. Safar with advice from

Colonel Ronald Bellamy, an authority

on combat casualties during the Vietnam

conflict, developed a revolutionary new

concept targeting battlefield death from

rapid exsanguination. This approach

involved transient “preservation” of

the victim–to allow evacuation, transport, and emergency “damage control” surgery, followed

by a delayed resuscitation using cardiopulmonary bypass. This concept was first described in the

literature by Dr. Tisherman and co-workers in 1990 in a manuscript in the Journal of Trauma where

the concept was called “deep hypothermia for preservation and resuscitation.” Shortly thereafter,

it was called “Suspended animation for delayed resuscitation” and eventually EPR. EPR involves

the use of a rapid ice-cold aortic flush to produce profound hypothermia (<10ºC) and induce a

preservation state in injury victims that “buys time” for the trauma surgeon to perform damage

control surgery that is followed by a delayed resuscitation using cardiopulmonary bypass.

In the laboratory, Dr. Tomas Drabek, recipient of the Charles Schertz Fellow Award in 2007-2008

from the Department of Anesthesiology, published a manuscript on the development of a new rat

model of EPR in the journal Critical Care Medicine. He developed this new model in rats to allow

for testing of therapeutic adjuncts to cold flush, and to evaluate alternative flush solutions. Dr.

Drabek is also using a variant of this approach to study deep hypothermia circulatory arrest, as it is

currently used in cardiac surgery and has published a manuscript on this approach in Life Sciences.

 

source: http://www.safar.pitt.edu/content/archive/annualreport/pdf/SCRR2006_2007AnnualReport.pdf

 

It looks like they've moved from general cryogenic stuff to medical emergency. I think if a person followed up on the sources, articles referenced, and research done by people, then you might get more information. Still, because it has been said that three hours were used... maybe that's the most time they could get out of the dogs before they couldn't be revived again?

 

Also, there seems to be discussion about a mouse model. As such, that should give a lot of valuable information on the mammalian system. Then again... mice have a very fast metabolism... burn a lot of energy... But maybe being able to freeze them, slow down their metabolism, and bring them back to life after a day even... would mean a lot.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Genecks

[Neco Vir]

CharonY, I understand what you mean, and nothing on this dead dogs experiment has ever detailed how they killed the dogs (but several animal rights groups are mad about the experiments, haha). I understand how we can consider them alive, especially since they do not stay dead.

 

Genecks, thanks for looking into it for me, I hope that you can find something to spark my interest!

Cyrogenics and biochemistry are still things I (and many others, I assume) do not understand fully and I must study up on it.

[Genecks]

CharonY, I understand what you mean, and nothing on this dead dogs experiment has ever detailed how they killed the dogs (but several animal rights groups are mad about the experiments, haha). I understand how we can consider them alive, especially since they do not stay dead.

 

Genecks, thanks for looking into it for me, I hope that you can find something to spark my interest!

Cyrogenics and biochemistry are still things I (and many others, I assume) do not understand fully and I must study up on it.

 

Yeah, thanks for the source. I could not find that thing. I tried.

I updated my post a moment ago. Maybe you've seen the last update.

 

I think my best advice is try reading through articles, chemistry books, some biology books, medical science books... if you want a better grasp of what is going on. And then again, maybe if you have a few simple, discrete questions, then email the people at the medical research center and ask them.

 

This is something I'll be looking into eventually again. But I think what I've quoted and the main site I gave is pretty good for now.

[CharonY]

The article I was refering to was this one:

 

Circulation. 2006 Jun 13;113(23):2690-6.

Critical time window for intra-arrest cooling with cold saline flush in a dog model of cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

Nozari A, Safar P, Stezoski SW, Wu X, Kostelnik S, Radovsky A, Tisherman S, Kochanek PM.

[Genecks]

CharonY, I understand what you mean, and nothing on this dead dogs experiment has ever detailed how they killed the dogs (but several animal rights groups are mad about the experiments, haha). I understand how we can consider them alive, especially since they do not stay dead.

 

Genecks, thanks for looking into it for me, I hope that you can find something to spark my interest!

Cyrogenics and biochemistry are still things I (and many others, I assume) do not understand fully and I must study up on it.

 

Hello, Neco Vir.

 

I do not know if you continue to read this or will come back to this. However, if someday you are to come back to this thread, I would like to suggest that you look into the research conducted by Dr. Richard E. Lee and colleagues at the Miami University in Ohio.

 

Here is a list of publications: http://www.units.muohio.edu/cryolab/publications/index.htm

 

After I observed these things for a little bit, I came to understand that there is definitely a complex biochemistry and cytological realm that is involved with freezing an organism and bringing it back. An ethological understanding of various biological and chemical workings may lead to better understanding an applicability to the human condition. There would be a need to discover and use model organisms as model systems to explore homologous (or pretty similar) systems in Homo sapiens. I think this would lead to an eventual link to finding an adequate way to "freeze" and revive people.

 

I currently hypothesize that if a vertebral organism could be successfully frozen and brought back, there would be severe damage the dendritic spines that maintain memory and cognition. As such, upon revival of the organism, it may amnesia and lack a sense of self. However, as shown with Rana sylvatica, it finds a way to regain some behaviors, such as mating behavior. So, it could be said that mating and feeding behavior, instinctual aspects, find a way to re-emerge after a cryogenic hiberation. There would definitely need to be more research into this, for which I surely lack the funds and time. I do suspect someone will eventually pick this up, though. I have emailed Dr. Richard E. Lee Jr. about this issues, and he suggested I attempt to decide whether or not I think there are serious cognitive impairments after a state of cryogenic inducement after reading some articles he gave me.

 

After briefly reading the articles, I decided that I think the realms of instinctual behavior and cognition are intertwined yet independent. Much more so in higher lifeforms, such as primates. I guess a person may want to find a species of organism that shows cognition along with social behavior and find a variety of experiments to examine and compare and contrast cognition vs. instinctual behavior (and perhaps vs. social behavior/cognition). This could but give the hope to keep such mappings together during freezing and revival.

 

The fact that frogs regain some behaviors after freezing means that there are aspects to neuronal systems that firmly establish behavior and memories. And there is some kind of biochemical soup that locks connections together so that when the animal in unfrozen, it can again continue to conduct the behaviors.

 

Long-term potentiation helps establish connections. But somehow, it's as if LTP is put on hold while the connection is still there. There isn't transmission, but it can be brought back online. "On-hold potentiation" if you will.

 

I'm particularly interested if it's some kind of epigenetic factor, genetic, or simply cytoplasmic issue that allows these neuronal connections to be locked in place so that they can continue activity after revival.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Genecks