Survey of Earned Doctorates discusion

[Genecks]

For those whom don't know what the SED reports are, here is a link.

 

Basically, the SED reports discuss various statistics and general backgrounds of persons who earned their doctorates in the USA.

Nonetheless, an interesting read if any foreigners would like to take a look.

 

I'm reading the 2008 one, and I came across something I found unusual.

Key Findings: 2008

 

Asians earned 2,543 research doctorates in 2008, more

than members of any other U.S. racial/ethnic minority

group (table 8).

 

I found that unusual, but I didn't find it unexpected. I believe it was a year or two ago when I started reading the SED reports and analyzing them. I came across discussion of how Asians supposedly are the second largest ethnic group with parents whom have bachelor degrees already, next to "multi-racial"... whatever that means..

 

I'm not sure what to interpret from these data. From reading the SED reports this year, I've been thinking that perhaps universities are starting to import science researchers.

 

What is your take on it?

Is it that America is importing scientists, giving them visas, and then the new citizens mark that they are citizens when the SED questionnaire comes around?

Edited April 20, 2010 by Genecks

[Greippi]

In my department (in the UK), there are many foreign students, particularly Asians.

 

Drugs companies are outsourcing a lot of their work to Asia, this could be a factor in motivating people from this part of the world to go in to the scientific field.

 

If you look at statistics of published papers, there is a dramatic rise in the number of papers coming from Asia. I have heard complaints from scientists that the research contained in many of these papers has been carried out very fast and therefore the quality of data is low. However, I suspect that a lot of the basis of these comments is down to the fact that these scientists were pipped to the post when it came to discovering something they had been working on!

A specific example of this was a scientist working in Belgium who had been working on a protein structure for decades, he had determined the low resolution structure some years back, but was biding his time before he published so he could get some higher resolution, concrete data. A publication containing low resolution data came from China before he could publish his high-quality results. The Chinese research group were credited with the discovery and understandably he was more than a little cross! Just goes to show that the field is so competitive and that biding your time isn't always the best way forward!

 

Scientific research in Asia is booming and I'm not surprised we're seeing a dramatic increase in the data you report above. I think it's great that scientific research is increasing on a global scale.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Greippi

[Genecks]

In my department (in the UK), there are many foreign students, particularly Asians.

 

Drugs companies are outsourcing a lot of their work to Asia, this could be a factor in motivating people from this part of the world to go in to the scientific field.

 

If you look at statistics of published papers, there is a dramatic rise in the number of papers coming from Asia. I have heard complaints from scientists that the research contained in many of these papers has been carried out very fast and therefore the quality of data is low. However, I suspect that a lot of the basis of these comments is down to the fact that these scientists were pipped to the post when it came to discovering something they had been working on!

A specific example of this was a scientist working in Belgium who had been working on a protein structure for decades, he had determined the low resolution structure some years back, but was biding his time before he published so he could get some higher resolution, concrete data. A publication containing low resolution data came from China before he could publish his high-quality results. The Chinese research group were credited with the discovery and understandably he was more than a little cross! Just goes to show that the field is so competitive and that biding your time isn't always the best way forward!

 

Scientific research in Asia is booming and I'm not surprised we're seeing a dramatic increase in the data you report above. I think it's great that scientific research is increasing on a global scale.

 

 

I'm not sure it's a global scale. I remember reading some complaints a while back on sciencemadness (http://sciencemadness.org) that a few of the chemists were annoyed that many asians (Chinese, I believe was the complaint) were leading the realm of chemistry. I can't remember the statement, but I believe one chemist stated that a journal...The Journal of Chemistry...(maybe?) is now The Journal of Chinese Chemistry.

 

For the past few years, I've been trying to inquire about how Asia's science industry has changed, because it has a lot of manpower and that can translate to a lot of cheap science labor with enough specialists standing around. I've often wondered if the Chinese industrialists would decide to either overtake scientific research and destroy America's scientific research structure in the process... or else if the Chinese citizens would get trained under the progressing Chinese research system and quickly attempt to leave for America in an attempt to get rich quick. I think both things are occurring at once, which may unfold to be a more serious problem a decade or more from now. Well, a problem for people who don't want a flooded market where scientists are paid a very low wage. From the research I did on Chinese wages, scientists are maybe paid twice as much (at most, I think) as a person who works at a fast food restaurant (in China).

 

The SED reports seem to be saying these people are Asian citizens. I will say that of the graduate students I've met whom are Asian, they seem to have an Asian accent. So, I'm pretty sure they are not American-born. Maybe they've found a way to get citizenship, and thus the foreign, Asian scientists are being represented as American citizens before doctoral graduation.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Genecks

[Greippi]

I'm not sure it's a global scale.

I didn't say it was on a global scale, I said it was increasing on a global scale.

 

I've often wondered if the Chinese industrialists would decide to either overtake scientific research and destroy America's scientific research structure in the process

This is certainly a worry. The "Western world" has always had academic research as a major export. We're seeing a rise in Asian academics and a cut in funding for academic institutions in the UK. If this trend continues, it's only a matter of time before all scientific research is outsourced to places like China, with UK citizens going to work overseas!

 

Unfortunately the government doesn't fully realise this and we're really lucky in the UK that we have science funding institutions who are on the side of the scientists and get us the funding in the first place.

[swansont]

 

I'm not sure what to interpret from these data. From reading the SED reports this year, I've been thinking that perhaps universities are starting to import science researchers.

 

What is your take on it?

Is it that America is importing scientists, giving them visas, and then the new citizens mark that they are citizens when the SED questionnaire comes around?

 

It's been going on for a while. When I was in grad school (15-20 years ago) I knew several Chinese grad students who had no intention of returning to China when they finished their studies. Note that the numbers given are for citizens and permanent residents, which broadens the pool somewhat.

 

They can get H-1B visas and then apply for permanent residency. Above the quota, there is an exemption for 20,000 more per year if they hold an advanced degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

[CharonY]

The US always had a significant proportion of non-American scientists. So it is definitely not a new trend. In addition, Asians (either foreign or not) tend to value education and tend to send them to university if at all possible. For overseas Chinese the US is still a prime address, though for engineering more and more are also going to Germany.

Now, China is trying to become a major player and is pumping loads of money to create state-of-the-art labs as well as trying to attract overseas Chinese back (the 100 talents program it is called, I think). In my field I noticed an increasing trend of Chinese labs (not Chinese names from US labs, there were there more than a decade ago), with a steady increase not only in output, but also in quality.

 

But back to the situation in the US, as a rule of thumb the undergrad courses are dominated by US citizens (roughly 75% and up), however at the grad level that changes (I think it was 30-0% non US grad students across all US universities). Postdocs are around 50% foreigners. Even in faculty position around 25% are foreigners, with Indians being the biggest group followed by Chinese (statistics were from around 2005, but if anything the trend is increasing).

In my group and most that I am collaborating with, the majority of postdocs and PIs are non-Americans (mostly Asians and Europeans) but even on the grad student level the US citizens are in the minority.

 

But again, that is a trend that has been going on for decades. Other countries are actually complaining about the "brain-drain" to the US.

 

This is certainly a worry. The "Western world" has always had academic research as a major export. We're seeing a rise in Asian academics and a cut in funding for academic institutions in the UK. If this trend continues, it's only a matter of time before all scientific research is outsourced to places like China, with UK citizens going to work overseas!

I do not think that is accurate. Outsourcing of certain industrial branches, maybe. But academic science is still often tightly bound to the country in question. While overseas collaborations exist, it is still a far cry from academic outsourcing. How could it? Academia has a fundamentally different role than industrial research.

[Greippi]

I do not think that is accurate. Outsourcing of certain industrial branches, maybe. But academic science is still often tightly bound to the country in question. While overseas collaborations exist, it is still a far cry from academic outsourcing. How could it? Academia has a fundamentally different role than industrial research.

 

I am sorry, I phrased that completely wrong! I'm not talking about academic outsourcing, I'm looking at the possible long-term effects of two trends:

 

Scientists educated to e.g. degree level have two MAIN routes if they want to continue in their field: working in industry or continuing with academic research.

What I meant to say was that if industry continues to be outsourced at an increasing rate, over time it decreases jobs for scientists trained "at home" in their own country.

A decrease in funding for academic institutions here is making it more and more difficult for scientists to be academically trained to a high level.

[CharonY]

Actually it is probably a bit of a false dichotomy. The main route is in theory the industrial one, whereas the academic is more the odd one out. The reasons are well known and include the limited positions available. And more funding won't do a bit, to ameliorate that as traditionally it results in the established groups being better funded rather than creating new ones. In good times roughly 20-25 % of PhDs have any hope to obtain a tenured position. In fact academia is a high-risk track with high rewards if you love the academic settings and low rewards if you focus on the tangibles.

Now the question is whether industrial science is outsourced to a high degree. For that one has to be clear what PhDs actually do. I assume that there will large differences depending on the field, but from what I have seen in the biomedical field the majority that is getting outsourced is in the production area. What is increasingly happening is that PhDs have to spend more and more time on traveling rather just being domestic, but that is a general trend everywhere. In short, I have not yet seen strong indications that on the PhD level the industry is outsourcing in significant amounts, however the job market has become more international in general.

On the flipside, non-limited academic positions have always been extraordinarily rare and was never something of a simple route to take.

I think I am getting off-topic here, though.

[Greippi]

I assume that there will large differences depending on the field, but from what I have seen in the biomedical field the majority that is getting outsourced is in the production area.

 

Yeah. From what I was talking about it, the perspective I'm coming from is that of drug discovery. The direction it seems to be going is that pharmaceutical industry (in the UK) is simply using the mass assay sort of trials as opposed to rational drug design (nothing wrong with that as long as the end result/cost is the same/better), and outsourcing their 'research'. It's really that side of my department (molecular biology) who are getting their knickers in a twist about this. Maybe it is a false dichotomy, but most post doctorate academics I've spoken to about this issue hold the view that I'm presenting.

[CharonY]

Well if you are talking about acacdemic funding from the industrial partners, then this is yet another issue. There is a love-hate relationship there (especially in the biomed field). Of course in the UK it may be different, but at least from what I have heard I would be surprised if it is in any country.