Crash Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 i was just wondering....... you all know a gyroscope? well if you had counter spinning discs on the same gyroscope (not taking into acount the friction etc.) would the net force cancel each other out and it would fall over? or not.......... im in the eprocess of making one now...damn decent brass is hard to find feedback please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Paxton Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 My guess is that they would cancel each other out, but I don't actually know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokingSkillz Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I thimk it would still stand: it stands cos the force is being thrown perpendicular to the axis equally in all directions so having 2 spheres spining in opposite directions should still have the same effect, only stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 yeap, the total angular momentum of the system would be zero and it would fall over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 wow cant wait to test this thing out......ill post pics of it once i finish it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 it would still work as if you just had one spinning at twice the speed and same weight or twice the weight and same speed the dirrection is irrelevent if they`re both on the same axis, the momentum is all that matters. they do NOT cancel out! you may be sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 He said discs SmokingSkillz, not spheres (although I'm not sure if it makes a difference). I'm pretty sure Rad E is right about the total angular momentum being zero YT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 sadly however it doesn`t work that way in practice and so I`de have to go with experimental evidence on this one, two opposite rotating discs on the same axis do not cancel out at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I'm not sure what you mean by "cancel out", but I suspect it's not the same as what Rad E means. They'll still be spinning, sure, but the system angular momentum won't be the same as in a "normal" gyroscope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 quite possible not as a system as it would entirely and altogether different, but it would still maintain the same stabilisation effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I think YT is right. It's not the whole net force, it's the force of each spinning disc. They both have a stabilization effect. In this case, a negative and a positive is not zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Cap'n Refsmmat said in post # :I think YT is right. It's not the whole net force, it's the force of each spinning disc. They both have a stabilization effect. In this case, a negative and a positive is not zero. Well, I'm siding with basic physics so you can think whatever you like. Considering YT hasn't actually given a mechanism, just some effects, I have to wonder what criteria you're using to make that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Sayonara³ said in post # :Well, I'm siding with basic physics so you can think whatever you like. Considering YT hasn't actually given a mechanism, just some effects, I have to wonder what criteria you're using to make that decision. And tell me, why do you pick me instead of the other two or three people that say it would stay upright? Let's see what happens when he makes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Cap'n Refsmmat said in post # :And tell me, why do you pick me instead of the other two or three people that say it would stay upright? Let's see what happens when he makes it. I think you mean one person (SmokingSkillz), and I've pointed out already that he proceeded from a false premise. Unless you count YT, although we are already disagreeing so he's not really a valid selection. But to answer your question, you are claiming strawman. I did not "pick you" because you said it will stay upright: I was pointing out that your agreeing with YT was based on unevidenced claims. I can't very well aim a response to you at anyone else, now can I? And I can tell you now what will happen - it will rattle around a bit, skitter away, and "fall over" (if a gyroscope can do such a thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Sayonara³ said in post # : But to answer your question, you are claiming strawman. I did not "pick you" because you said it will stay upright: I was pointing out that your agreeing with YT was based on unevidenced claims. You have no evidence either, unless you tried it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 whoops, I just googled it. http://www.ph.unimelb.edu.au/staffresources/lecdem/mi7.htm I was wrong. I did have perfectly good reason to believe it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Cap'n Refsmmat said in post # :You have no evidence either, unless you tried it. It's called PHYSICS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted March 16, 2004 Author Share Posted March 16, 2004 well i guess time will tell, im half way through the second one (the first one broke) although im inclined to go with Sayonara on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 how is it then that 2 gyroscopes can be stacked even if they spin in opposite directions? we`ve done it as kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Paxton Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I guess the centre pole stabalizes the whole thing. 1 centre pole cannot lean to balance two fluctuating weights, but two centre poles work individually. Like a tornado, which leans to balance itself. It leans to the heavier side, but by the time it has leaned, the heavier side has spun to the other side. Its juggling the weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 YT2095 said in post # :how is it then that 2 gyroscopes can be stacked even if they spin in opposite directions? we`ve done it as kids because they are not attached to the same rigid straight pole. Just try it, you'll see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Paxton Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I said that already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 that pert was right, the rest was a little off though. Iam not so sure whether the tornado example reallz works, but it could be a gyroscope effect, I will have to think about that. The real reason that a gyroscope turns slowly around an axis perpendicular to the ground (parallel to gravity) is to do with torque on the body. The following site explains it quite nicely, so I won't go into it in more detail here. http://www.howstuffworks.com/gyroscope.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 but im not having one straight pole in the center its gonna be two (some problems here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Paxton Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 You could try something bendy instead of two poles. I was thinking about the tornado, it's like lots of gyroscopes with a bendy middle. That would be really cool made from metal. I can imagine it as a sarealistic weapon with jagged edges in a movie! Pincho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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